hi JIm the blindbowman

the 1847 on the peralta stones .... is not a date ..... it looks like a date but , it is not a date ...

The 1847 on the Stone maps Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Hello Blindbowman, Your belief that the 1847 on the stone maps is not a date is something that has weighed heavily on my mind for a long time. I can make arguments for both sides of that debate, but they are all based on speculation and gut feelings. If as I believe, the Stone Crosses are a part of the Peralta Stone Map set, they support your belief because 1751 appears at the bottom of one of them. Assuming that the numbers 1751 are a date on the cross,how well does the date 1751 for being the time period when the Stone maps were made fit with your theory? I will not press you for information that you may have invested a lot of time and effort to obtain, but is there any chance you can tell us what you think the 1847 stands for if it is not a date?

LOL jim

ya if you want to start the bigist dam gold rush of fools this earth has ever seen . its a shipsheading in complex binary code ! . most latin navagation was done in shipsheadings because most learn from shipcaptains ...yes ,i can plot and prove it and thanks dude i did not now there was another stone with a date ... i already know the formatted cope .. do you want to solve the legend of the LDM, i wanted to solve all of them !is that OK lol do you got time to be stinking wealthy ?

Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Blindbowman, In response to your request to discuss this in private via e-mail. I saw your request in another thread, but I can't seem to reply to it in that thread. The POST A REPLY button isn't coming up on that screen. Yes, I will discuss this in e-mail if you are concerned about privacy. You can send e-mail to me at: arizona_drifter@yahoo.com better to copy and paste the address to avoid typos. I look forward to hearing from you, Jim P.S. What would I do if you made me wealthy you asked? Probably live out my remainig years on a sailboat going from one small island to another in the South Pacific! And, I WOULD NEED A NAVIGATOR if you are interested.

lol

you think to small jim , 85' sunseeker . been around the earth 3 times so far ... lol will do ...

Sailing around the world Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Blindbowman, Well click on my name above and send me an email then. I won't go start looking at boats just yet, but I might pull out a few magazines and look at some pictures! Jim

sometimes

they dont get dude . lets talk and we will see if the others email us or not ..

show of hands

i guess my work dose nt mean anything, than i should just tell everyone where the mine is right here on this site page .. right ? how many want to know where the LDM is for real ?

Theories Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Bowman, Nobody said you theories are meaningless. I happen to think that some of them have a lot of merit. The bottom line is, until the mine is found, all any of us have are theories. The only way to tell how good they are is to put your boots on the trail and see where they lead you to. Or you can post the location right here like you suggested above and see if it leads anybody else to it. Jim

your cute when your mad lol

3?

with 3 answers . i gave you the answer now ask your self the questions .

a waste of time ...

they come and go

partners dont last long around here .LOL ,,.. as for the lost Dutchman mine and the jesuit treasures . soon ...

hi JIm

just to show you i hold no ill will to you . the roman numbers are not roman at all . they are a more complex binary than the other and it took me some time to brake it down . but they are elevation messurements ... beyond that i have to much to do so i hope you find what your looking for ... i did ...

You make it sound so easy! Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Good job blindbowman, When you dig it up, send us all a picture.

you forgot

jim as i told you the Latin heart dose not go to the Ldm . it goes to a location 14 miles north . look at the eleavations they are not in the area at all . look at the Knife handle . you can figer this out if you try for a few years . get the point . no i am not jokeing look at the point of the knife it points to the next jesuit treasure to the north .... it is that easy for me ...go luck .partner ...

Ok jim to late now blindbowman

You 5 men ar to late now, jim the fool is on you now. clay Worst will get me at the areport and i will show wher evrything is! he is the only one to take up on my terms so he gits it all! i don't even want any of it all i want is the all to knoe that i found it. and gave it all to clay. i will make my mony when the movie comes out!!!!! your to slow jim so you loose!

Where were the stone maps found Roger So. Calif.

Hello Jim, First let me state that I enjoyed your article very much and I will be following the discussions that follow with great interest! A couple of questions come to mind that I am hoping you or someone else can answer. I have seen discussions about the stone maps on other websites where people claim that the stone maps were not found by Travis Tumlinson in the area stated in your article and that he actually got them from a relative that may have stole them from a church in Mexico. The same authors on those websites also claim that Tumlinson made copies of the stone maps and may have changed some of the information on them in the process. How do you account for the difference of opinions in where the stone maps came from and the possibility that what we have all come to accept as the originals have been altered? Roger

Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Roger, I canot be held accountable for things written by other people. I am familiar with both of those stories, but due to the lack of creditable sources and supporting evidence, I have never given either of them much thought. Jim Hatt

the real blindbowman the blindbowman

the reply ok jim you lose now , was not made by the blindbowman ! i am the real blindbowman and who made that reply is a total ass ..... i hold no ill will to anyone here or to jim hatt and i have gave no one any data of value .. and yes i have found the house in the cave on octber 27 th when i was in the mts for the frist time and have prove i have found the LDM ...

The stones MC Ohio

I did not take the time to read every word printed on the opinions of each person returning suggestions. However, I find the facts posted intriguing enough to ask the obvious question: "Whether or not the stones appear to be original, is besides the fact that has ANYONE confirmed the stones to belong to any specific region or closer yet, to a specific area resembling the formations and materials that they imply to be a part of the Superstition Mountains?" Personally, if I wanted to mark an area in rememberance of passing times (eras) I would assure the markings to be of permanent developements. And if I took the time to chisel out the details of this area, I would not make it near as obvious as the naked eye would "read". I would use the materials close at hand I.E. ... the stones of that immediate area, not thinking in the 17-1800's of modern science detecting certain traceable links to specific areas from minerals or elements found in these stones. Which brings up another thought, ... I guess they took the time to chisel the stones during the rest periods, or at night after the mining had stopped? Apparently they spent detailed time making maps as opposed to mining ores that would land them rich and never have to err, ummm, ................ labor/toil again?

MC in Ohio Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

You have made some valid observations and presented some equally valid questions. The answers require a basic background knowledge of the legends and lore of the Superstition Mountains. According to the legends, Mexican mining activities in the 1700-1800's were done by large groups of people or families. I am only logically assuming that one or two of these people would be designated as Map Makers. I suspect that they took notes about things they saw while traveling the trails and used these notes to create the stone maps once they reached their base camp where they expected to remain stationary for a length of time. There are three different types of stone involved in the complete set of maps, and yes. Each one can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area.

some what agree the blindbowman

there are a few opioions about the stones , i beleave the stones were made by one man , the leader of the jesuits and the stones had nothing to do with anyone other than the jesuit Kino .. he had planed to start a new city with rich mines and what happen was his own greed got thousands killed and was a shame of his part in the killings ...everyone lost . the jesuits the spainish and the Apache .. something you all may not know or have herd of is there is in fact a back way into the tunnle . only the Apache knew it and used it to get guns to the indains working the mine ..when the spainish were working the mines they slave the apache and got what they earned .... as far as the stones go, yes they do fit a given place in the superstitions and when i make my reseach public i will post the fact and the reasons for this ....Kino could have made these stones in his sleep . he was the best map maker for many years in this area ... he dose not sign his work because his profile dose that for him ! i have in fact sent data to the tonto nationial forst offices that dose in fact relate the stones to a given area of the superstitions ... how is it going jim ? we may get to see those mines yet ! .... i can now prove relateionship between the tayopa and the LDM ...waiting for the district Ranger to over look if anything is man made at the sites ...if i get the permits would you 5 men like to visit the sites ? i hope the rest of the stones are in the tunnle with the jesuit treasure trove ...it would be something to see the hole set of stones ...

test

Am I missing something? ORO GRANDE

Jim, As you probably already know, The stone maps have been the subject of heated debate on several other websites and your articles on this site have been quoted from many times in those debates. Something that puzzles me is that your article on dating the stone maps leads me to believe that it is your opinion that there is no way anyone can positively date the stone maps because they are not old enough to use scientific methods on, yet in this article you seem to believe that the stone maps are authentic (old) maps to some hidden treasure or lost mine. Are you contradicting yourself or am I missing something? ORO GRANDE

Oro Grande Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

ORO GRANDE You are correct in your belief that I am a believer in the authenticity of the stone maps. You are also correct about my opinion that there is no way modern science can accurately date the inscriptions on them (at this late date). I think your confusion is due to your not fully understanding the difference between “old” and old “enough” to use radioisotope methodology to date something, and the limitations of both biological and radiological methods of dating. I wrote the article on Dating the Stone Maps and posted it here to refute arguments that a simple carbon dating test could answer the question about the age of the stone maps. In that article I presented no conclusions about the age or authenticity of the maps. My only intention was to keep non-believers from using the lack of carbon dating evidence as “evidence” that the stone maps were not authentic. There is little I can do to refute “Expert” opinions that are contradictory to what I believe about the maps, except point out holes in their theories like I did in the article posted by Gene Botts. But, when we are talking about scientific evidence, my professional background affords me the luxury of being able to provide an “Expert” opinion of my own which is based on scientific fact. Charles Kenworthy and several other professional treasure hunters enlisted the help of many different “Experts” in several fields that did examine the original stones. As a result of these examinations, Chuck and others came to the conclusion that the maps were old enough to be authentic and warrant the expenditure of their time and resources in an attempt to locate whatever the maps lead to. Unfortunately the results of these examinations were never made public for obvious reasons, and we have no way of knowing if there was any biological evidence remaining on them to be evaluated at that time, or what their conclusions were based on. Evidence supporting the authenticity of the stone maps always gets filed away in locked cabinets, while expert opinions refuting their authenticity continue to get published for all to see. While on the subject of “Expert” opinions: This is a subject that I get a lot of e-mail about from people that either do not know how or do not wish to post a question in this website. I have never been shy about posting my own opinions and refuting those of others when I felt that they were speaking beyond the extent of their knowledge and training. Over time and by way of a number of replies, I have developed a standard response to questions about the opinions of experts that claim the stone maps are modern “Fakes”. The most recent “Expert” opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation! In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”. Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them. Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period? Again, these “Experts” are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these “evaluations” are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility. Some people with big degrees will try to wiggle anything into an explaination to keep from saying the words “I don’t know”. I am a little disappointed with the author of the article and publisher of Arizona Highways for not researching the matter further and presenting a more balanced report that included reactions to the “Expert” opinions provided and some opposing views from the other side of the fence. Fortunately for those of us that stand firmly on the side of the stone map debate and believe they are genuine artifacts, there is a very dedicated researcher in Southern California by the name of Mike McChesney. Mike has dug very deep into the history of the stone maps and has re-discovered that there was an expert evaluation of them done back in the early 60’s that many of us had heard about but never really went looking for. This evaluation was performed by Professor Stephen Dana who was the head of the Geology Dept at Redlands University, in Redlands California, when there may have been some biological evidence remaining in the inscriptions. Although this evaluation, like so many others, is probably filed away somewhere in a locked cabinet, it may be retrievable, and Mike is currently in the process of trying to obtain a copy of it. It was written by professor Dana at the conclusion of his evaluation, which according to Mike’s research was later used by the FBI in a federal investigation to conclude that the inscriptions on the stones were over 100 years old in the early 1960’s. The whole story is very interesting to say the least, and I will do my best to encourage Mike to share it all with us at deseretusa.com when he receives the report, (whatever the result is) and forms his own conclusions about the age of the inscriptions. Jim Hatt

blindbowman reply germ Aromas Ca.

blindbowman if you still are around would you e-mail

blindbowman reply germ Aromas Ca.

blindbowman if you still are around would you e-mail me at germs50@yahoo.com THANKS!!!???!!

Stone Maps Since 1949 Mike McChesney Laguna Niguel, Ca.

Hey Folks, My name is Mike McChesney, and I got involved in this mess on another forum, when I saw someone post information that I knew to be incorrect. We went back and forth on a number of particulars, and he began asking questions that I had to actually research to find the answers to. Well, once I started researching the answers, I found a LOT of contradictory stories and "facts". I decided to take a part of the Stone maps' Story that should be easy enough to prove or disprove. The history of the Stone Maps from 1949 until present. If I could prove or disprove the parts of that history, I would have better grounds to either believe or disbelieve in the possibility of them being authentic Treasure Maps. I took all the stories I knew of, and picked out most of the common elements: Tumlinson finding the stones, Tumlinson and his brother using the stones, acquisition of the stones by Clarence O. Mitchell (CEO of MOEL Inc), verification of the stones by Professor Stephen Dana of Redlands University, SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) investigation and trial of MOEL, possession and testing of the stones by the FBI, and how the stones came to be at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. I began calling, emailing, and snail mailing various legal and historical archives, individuals, schools, and papers. Here is what I know for certain as of now: Travis Tumlinson came into possession of the Stone Maps in 1949. How he got them is another story. It is possible that he found them, but that seems to me to be less likely than him getting them from his Treasure Hunting Father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson (no joke). If he did get them from his father, who got them from a person that stole them from under the floor at the Arizpe Mission (around the turn of the century), that would give them MUCH more credibility towards being authentic treasure maps to me. BUT......... For the most part, Travis Tumlinson kept them a secret from 1949, until after his death in 1961. He made about a dozen trips into the Superstitions from his home in Hood River, Oregon from 1949 until his health began to fail in about 1956. at this time, he gave the Stone Maps to his brother Robert Tumlinson. Robert was retired (living in Oregon), and living on a small pension. He kept the stones under his bed in his apartment. He finally found a partner in his landlord, Gene Davis. Gene and Robert travelled to the Superstitions about four times, but could not solve the stone maps. When Robert's health began to fail (he was older than Travis), he gave the stones back to Travis and his wife Alleen. Robert died, and Travis died shortly after, in 1961. After Travis' death, his wife Alleen sold the stones to a long time family friend. A Clarence O. Mitchell. He was the CEO of MOEL Inc. MOEL stood for "Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing". The purpose of the company was to solicit investors to give them money to purchase land in mineral rich areas of the country, and then lease the mineral rights to that same land to mining and oil companies. He bought the stones personally, and tried to keep them completely separate from the company. Sometime right after purchasing the stones, Mitchell had them examined by Professor Stephen Dana (Geology at Redlands University), and Martin Stout (Geology at Cal State University at L.A.). I have yet to get a hard copy of these examinations, but the results were supposed to have been that they were at least 100 years old (in the early 1960s). Stephen Dana died shortly after retiring from Redlands University in 1986. He had taken all his papers home when he left. I have been in contact with his widow Jane Dana. I am currently waiting to see if she can find anything in his papers. On June 12th of 1964, Life Magazine came out with an article about the stones. This was their public unveiling. It also brought them to the attention of the Federal Government. In september of 1964, the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) filed charges against MOEL Inc. for the selling of unregistered stock to investors. Some people have made a big deal about this, but it was NO BIG DEAL! They had just failed to file ONE FORM with the SEC at the beginning of the years. The trial lasted ONE DAY (30 Sept 1964). The result of the trial was that MOEL Inc. was enjoined (stopped) from selling stock, until the next year, after they filed the proper form. In the course of the investigation, the SEC learned about the Stone Maps. The enlisted the aid of the FBI to see if they could verify the authenticity of the Stones. If they could be PROVED (let me repeat that word: PROVED) to be older than 100 years, they would fall under the Arizona Antiquities Acts and be the property of the state. If they were found to be newer fakes, the SEC would add fraud charges to the unlicensed stock sales charges. The FBI took the stones to ASU, and the results were inconclusive. The FBI learned about the Dana/Stout Tests, and got in touch with Professor Dana. After interviewing him, they asked for and received a signed affidavit as to his conclusions. I don't have a hard copy of just what his conclusions were, but the stones were returned to Mitchell before the trial even bagan. It also explains Bob Corbin's story about seeing the stones in the possession of the FBI while he was visiting the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix, and the agents telling him that it was their "belief" that the stones were "at least" 100 years old. When MOEL broke up in 1969, Mitchell had a second set of stone maps made. They were engraved just like the originals. He gave two originals and two copies to one of his partners, and he took two originals and two copies. In 1970, Mitchell donated his set of Stone Maps to The Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum/AL Flagg Foundation. He did this as part of a big tax break from the state. That is what I know right now. I am waiting on a copy of the SEC investigation file (complete), and the final word from Professor Dana's widow. What do I believe? As of now (barring any solid new evidence), I think the Stone Maps are authentic Treasure Maps. Who made them? No idea. Where do they lead? No idea. Best of luck, Mike

One lastr thing Mike McChesney Laguna Niguel, Ca.

If anybody questions whether the Tumlinsons faked them, or knew them to be fakes, don't look at what people say. Look at what they do: Travis Tumlinson kept the stones a secret (for the most part) for the entire time he owned them. He made about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to Apache Junction, Arizona. Does that look like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! He NEVER attempted to sell them while they were in his possession. Does that sound like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! Robert Tumlinson kept the stones in a box under his bed. He never attempted to sell them, even though he was relatively poor, living on a VERY small retirement pension. He found a man who was intersested in them, but did he sell them to him? NOPE! He got the man to pay for them to go to the Superstitions about four times. When his health began to fail, did he sell them? NOPE! He gave them back to his brother. Did the sick Travis try selling them now? NOPE! He died in possession of the stones. When Travis died, his widow Alleen sold the stone maps to a long time family friend Clarence Mitchell. Would you sell something you thought or knew to be fake to a long time family friend? I wouldn't! After purchasing the stones, Mitchell kept their existence mostly a secret for three years. Does that sound like he thought them to be fakes? Not to me. Best, Mike

One Last Thing Mike McChesney Laguna Niguel, Ca.

If anybody questions whether the Tumlinsons faked them, or knew them to be fakes, don't look at what people say. Look at what they do: Travis Tumlinson kept the stones a secret (for the most part) for the entire time he owned them. He made about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to Apache Junction, Arizona. Does that look like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! He NEVER attempted to sell them while they were in his possession. Does that sound like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! Robert Tumlinson kept the stones in a box under his bed. He never attempted to sell them, even though he was relatively poor, living on a VERY small retirement pension. He found a man who was intersested in them, but did he sell them to him? NOPE! He got the man to pay for them to go to the Superstitions about four times. When his health began to fail, did he sell them? NOPE! He gave them back to his brother. Did the sick Travis try selling them now? NOPE! He died in possession of the stones. When Travis died, his widow Alleen sold the stone maps to a long time family friend Clarence Mitchell. Would you sell something you thought or knew to be fake to a long time family friend? I wouldn't! After purchasing the stones, Mitchell kept their existence mostly a secret for three years. Does that sound like he thought them to be fakes? Not to me. Best, Mike

The Holy Grail of the Stone Maps Roger El Paso, Tx

Mr. McChesney You have collected a lot of information. If you haven’t already, you will soon learn that the easy part is over now and the hard part begins. I think Jim Bark said it best when he called it - “Separating the wheat from the chaff”. A lot of the information you have collected has already been discarded by a lot of us as chaff for lack of source material to back it up. I should think that Jim would be a lot of help in the sorting process. He has been marching along that trail for many years. In my opinion there is only one document that is going to settle the argument over the validity of the stone maps. The Holy Grail of that subject is the FBI report. You find that and you can throw everything else away. Roger

to mr x LENNY new hampshire

ME AND MY BUDDY PLAN TO HEAD OUT INTO THE ARIZONA OUTBACK FOR A GOLD MINING EXPEDITION IF YOU CAN GIVE US SOME OF YOUR CLUES AND ANY OTHER INFO THAT WILL HELP WE WILL GREATLY REWARD YOU FOR THIS WE ARE YOUNG AND STRONG YOU CAN CALL ME AT 603-903-0696 lenny i live in new hampshire looking forward to hearing from you

Roger Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Your vote of confidence is flattering. I wish it were that easy. I have dismissed things many times and then had to re-evaluate my decisions at a later date. Although I can sometimes provide background information that supports or cast doubt on something, it is a rare case where I can firmly dismiss something or recommend that someone else does. I get duped just as often as everyone else does. Remember, a person can be duped into believing that good information is bad just as easily as the other way around. Sometimes there is physical evidence that can be used to evaluate the validity of a particular story. Sometimes personal knowledge about the source of the information can be helpful and sometimes we rely on nothing more than a gut feeling which is usually based on what we want to believe. No matter which method we use to evaluate the validity of a certain piece of information or story, most people often rely the heaviest on the latter even in the face of physical evidence to the contrary. It is easier to convince ourselves that there must be something wrong with the physical evidence, than it is to revise our own complex theories that we have come to believe in. In the end, each man has to make his own decision about what to accept as valid information and what to dismiss. My own experience has been that it is very difficult to change a man’s mind once he has formed a conclusion. But I will still make an effort now and then in cases where I believe the evidence is strong enough. I would be interested in knowing which pieces of Mikes information you have dismissed and your logic for doing it. Jim

Lenny Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

You addressed you question to Mr. X? He was the author of different article about his search for the Lost Dutchman Mine that can be found elsewheree on this website. I have heard by way of second hand information that Mr. X has passed away, so I will attempt to answer your question in his behalf. The Lost Dutchman Mine and the Peralta Stone Maps are deep subjects that as you can see from reading the articles on this website, are often disputed as being nothing but mythical stories. The debates about whether or not they actually exist have gone on for decades with no resolution. Some people have dedicated huge portions of their lives to searching for the answers to the questions you ask, and gone to their graves without ever finding them. If you seek a "City Slickers" type of adventure for your vacation, I recommend that you contact a registered Outfitter and Packer to provide you with horses and guide you safely into and out of our remote Wilderness Area. If your desire is to seek and actually take some Arizona Gold home with you, then I recommend that you contact and join a Treasure Hunting Club located in the area you plan to visit before you come. Treasure Hunting Clubs have experienced members that are always glad to help beginners learn about the types of equipment needed to search for gold and how to use it. In most cases they also have their own mining claims where you can go to put the skills they teach to use in the field, and actually find some gold to take home with you. Making a trip into the Wilderness under the supervision of an experienced guide, and learning how to recognize real gold when you see it in it's natural form, are both prerequisite requirements I would recommend that you meet before deciding to go off into any remote area on your own. The best clue I can give you, that I believe in myself, comes right off the Stone maps "Busca El Coazon" (Search for the Heart). I believe that to be the key to solving the mystery of the stone maps. It is up to you to decide for yourself what it means. If you figure that out, you will go home one happy Treasure Hunter. Good Luck! Jim

Why is this different from you Booklet with he same title? Randy Mesa, Az

Jim, I have a copy of one of your booklets that this article is obviously the source of. In comparing the two I have noticed that some things have been changed or omitted in the article form of the booklet. For instance the first thing that I noticed was that your booklet had a forward by Ron Feldman that does not appear in the article. Another thing, although insignificant to the content, is that the format and layout of the article is different than it is in the booklet. Have you concluded that Ron Feldman’s forward was to non-supportive of the statement you were trying to make and omitted if for that reason, and omitted some other information because you have concluded that it was inaccurate? One last question. Why do you believe the stone crosses and latin heart are pieces of the stone map set and how do you tie them together strong enough to go as far out on a limb as you have to make that claim? Randy

Wheat and Chaff Roger El Paso

Hey Jim, In regard to which pieces of Mikes information that I have dismissed and my reasoning behind them. Discretion being the better part of valor. I would have to think about that for a long time before making a public statement. I wouldn’t mind discussing it in private with you if you will provide me with an email address. Be forewarned, you might not like hearing what I have to say. I can’t present my arguments against several of the stories going around about the stone maps without stepping on some toes. Some of those toes may be attached to personal friends of yours. In other words, don’t ask the questions if your not man enough to handle the answers, and I must have your word in advance that things we discuss in private are to remain strictly between you and I. Roger

Randy Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Az

Randy This article is just one chapter from a ledger I have been keeping for almost 20 years. I keep it in manuscript form for ease of including it in a book that I may or may decide to publish someday. I extracted this chapter from the manuscript and revised it as necessary for it to stand alone and be presentable without the other chapters of the manuscript. I had 100 copies of it printed in booklet form just to introduce people interested in the stone maps to some of the history of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses that was not readily available in any other published material, to start them thinking about the possibility that these are genuine articles that support the validity of the stone maps. I included my own theories about how all of the pieces of the maps came to be where they were found just as one possible explanation that fits neatly within the boundaries of the recorded history. Ron’s comments were his opinion and as you pointed out, did conflict with the point I was trying to make, but I considered that as an example of the many different opinions of the stone maps, which is a very important part of the whole legend that surrounds them. I omitted Ron’s forward from the article because when he wrote it and gave me permission to use it, it was for the booklet, in the form and content of the booklet as it was when that permission was given. I know that I would not appreciate someone that had me make a written comment on something that they wrote, and then revise what I had read and commented on and continue to include my original comments with the revised material. That is the only reason that Ron’s forward does not appear with this article. Any other omissions or revisions were done by me to update the material from the time it was written or by the staff of Desertusa.com to correct grammatical or typographical errors on my part, or to arrange it into a format compatible with their website software. I believe the Latin heart and the stone crosses are a part of the original set of stone maps found decades earlier because… Beside the fact that the finder of the Latin claimed to have found it in the same area where the stone maps were found. Many of the symbols used on the heart and crosses are the same as ones used on the stone maps and not commonly used on treasure maps or identified in books about treasure signs and symbols. ie: The omega symbol, a triangle, a heart and a circle within a circle. Coincidence? That is always a possibility, but these are all symbols that are for the most part unique to the stone maps. None of these symbols are descriptive enough by themselves to lead anyone to anything or be easily identified in the field, which suggests to me that they are symbolic of something known only to the author of the maps. If we knew what they represented, we might know what to look for in the field. Since we don’t, we all might be walking right past them without realizing the importance of some obvious landmark that have repeatedly caught our attention as being unusual or curious, but not identifiable as being associated with the stone maps. This train of thought is consistent with a lot of theories that the Jesuits made these maps and used codes in them that only they would understand. Chuck Kenworthy (A well known and often quoted researcher and treasure hunter) claimed that information he received from his research in the Archives in Spain indicated that the symbols used on the stone maps often had double meanings. You and I might see something resembling a triangle in the mountains and come to the conclusion that we are in the immediate area of something of importance displayed on the stone maps, while someone that knew the true or “other” meaning of the triangle might concluded that he was on the right trail and to continue on in the same direction for several more miles. If I were going to make a map to something of value to be used by myself at a later date to get back to it, or to help someone else find it. I could see myself including some misleading information on the map (change North to South or Feet toYards) that would make it useless to anyone that did not know the “Key” to using the map in case it fell into the wrong hands. It is a very common practice that has been in use for as long as people have been drawing maps to something of importance. It is difficult to imagine that there are no secret codes in something as complex as these maps are. Jim Hatt

Roger Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Roger, I don’t care whose toes you step on as long as you have your facts straight and your logic is sound. I wouldn’t even mind you stepping on mine (too much) if you find fault with anything I have said… If your facts are straight and your logic is sound. Confidentiality in private communications is assured! If it weren’t for the security of Confidential communications I wouldn’t be able to communicate with anyone. There are a lot of dirty little secrets in my inbox. I suspect that some of them are even true! You can click on my name above and send something directly to my e-mail. Jim Hatt

The Latin Heart M. Crader Fountain Hills, Az

Jim, I have been following the story of the stone maps since the article in Life Magazine came out about them in the early 1960's. I knew some of the people you mentioned in your article above, Clarence Mitchell, Charlie Miller, Bill Hidden and Al Reser. I saw the Latin Heart that Bill found many times and accompanied him on two trips to the U of A when he was working with some of the professors down there about the meaning of the Roman Numerals on the back of it. Bill allowed me to make pencil rubbings of both sides of the heart, and I used them to make full scale paper copies of the heart. I compared the drawings of the Latin Heart in your article to the copies that I made. I believe that they are xerox copies of my drawings. How they ever got into a private collection in Texas and then came to you through Tom Kollenborn is beyond me. To the best of my recollection the only copies I ever gave out were to Bob Ward, Al Reser and Rick Peck. I do know that Bill let several other people to make paper copies of the heart that are probably in circulation still today, but the ones I saw myself were hand drawn from just looking at the original stone and not as accurately detailed as the ones I made from my pencil rubbings. FYI, I always believed that the missing word where the blank rectangle is between the two TABULA's, was also the word tabula, and the missing word by the small square beside the word MEUS was also meus, but I wasn't sure enough to put those words in there. The remaining empty square at the end of the word FAUCES might not have been a word at all. I couldn't make out a single complete letter in it but I did feel that there had been a word there at one time. Understand that this stone had a lot of wear on both sides of it and that some of the characters I could see on my pencil rubbings were not visible to the naked eye on the actual stone. The Roman Numeral side was the worst. The drawings you have in your article are copies of the very best I could come up with under the circumstances, and there could be errors in them, as well as some missing words or symbols. I just thought you might like to know some of the missing history behind these drawings and should be aware of the possibility of errors in them. I enjoyed your article very much and found it to be historically accurate and as close to the truth as I could have told it myself. There is so much historically inaccurate information going around about the stone maps that it is refreshing to see someone like yourself making the effort to set the story straight, even though it may result in stepping on some toes in the process. These days people seem to put more importance on being "Politically Correct" or not offending anyone, than they do on historical accuracy. My years for getting out in the mountains and trying to solve the stone maps and the Latin heart are long past, but I still enjoy reading about them and it pleases me to know that your generation will pick up where mine left off. Someday Jim these maps will be solved. If not in your generation, maybe the next, as long as there are people like you and a few others that search for the truth, and are not afraid of stepping on any toes to expose the Myths. M Crader

Mr. Crader Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Thank You for providing some additional history about the paper copy of the Latin Heart. Are you any relation to the Crader's that that packed Al Reser's camp and supplies into the mountains for several years? Do you know where the original Latin Heart stone is today, or have any suggestions about where I might start looking to find out? I am also interested in seeing the original pencil rubbings if you still have them. My only interest in them is to verify that the drawings I have are the exact same size as the original stone. I would like to come and talk to you in person if possible. Please click on my name above and send me an e-mail with instructions on how I can contact you directly. Jim

Original Latin Heart M. Crader Fountain Hills, Az

Jim, I would enjoy talking to you in person myself, but due to health issues I am currently residing with my daughter in Calif. There are circumstances that would make that awkward at this time. I apologize for misleading you to believe that I lived in Fountain Hills. It is an instinctive internet precaution that I use when posting to open discussions. I don’t mean to be rude or mysterious, but I think that you will understand that issues involving treasure maps often lead to undesirable experiences. Bill Hidden’s life was so upset over that heart stone that he finally started telling everyone that inquired about it that he had given up on it and crushed it to powder. Since Bill is no longer with us, I see no reason for not telling you that, that never really happened. Out of frustration from the consequences of owning the heart, and an immediate need for transportation, Bill traded it for a truck. As a part of that trade it was agreed that he would continue to tell people the story about him crushing it up to protect the new owner from having the same bad experiences with treasure hunters that Bill did. That individual passed away a couple of years ago, and I am told that he left instructions that upon his death, it would be anonymously donated to the Historical Society Museum in Apache Junction, and that those wishes were honored. Regarding the actual size of the stone heart. I can answer your question in a way that you can verify that the drawing you have is to the correct scale. Place your copy of the drawing on the table in front of you with the round lobes of the heart at the top of the page, and the point of the heart towards you. Measure horizontally across the widest distance on the face of the heart near the top. It should be exactly 7 inches. Then measure vertically from the highest point on both lobes at the top of the heart down to the pointed tip of it. Both of these measurements should also be exactly 7 inches. If necessary you can enlarge or reduce your copy to those dimensions and have it to the exact scale of the original stone. Jim, I have some personal letters from Clarence Mitchell that discuss some things about the stone maps, that were not in his book, and you might be interested reading. It is a family tradition for us to spend the Easter holiday in Apache Junction. Barring any unforeseen circumstances We plan to follow that tradition in 2007. I believe it may be mutually advantageous for us to get together and roll some thoughts around on the table while I am there if it would be convenient for you at that time. M Crader

Mr. Crader Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

I had heard the story about the heart being crushed from Al Reser. He also told me at the time that he was suspicious about it. It made no sense, but when several people say they heard Bill say that. What do you believe? Thanks for the dimensions of the heart. There are two Historical Society Museums in Apache Junction. One on Hwy 88 about 1 mile from Goldfield, and one right at Goldfield itself. Do you know which one was supposed to be the one that the original heart was given to? Jim

i am going to say this once and only once ,, even if me and Jim hatt do not work togather I agree with jim 100% about the peralta stones age .. yet let me state that i went to the supers in decmber and hiked over 115 miles . find what we still beleave is the grave site of the dutchmans nephew and a stone house in a cave . and a tunnle site . .. and i go on record as stateing the stones are real and if they were not these sites would not have been found where they are ... . as far as i can tell the stone are 100% correct and do locate these sites ... i hope some day to work with jim . yet after a rough start it may not happen . but that dose not make me think he is worng . in fact he is closer than most know ....... our next trip is to uncover the site of what we beleave is the nephew and do a search of the stone house area and tunnle area ... i will repete it was there is no miss under standing of what i said . " the stones do in fact point out real locations ' and i can prove this .... when i do get my treasure trove permits i will in fact prove the stones are real and not fakes as Jim and i both agree they are real no matter if we can prove it at this time or not ... you must look at a few factors .. for one who ever made them was super smart and had a frist hand wisdom of the mt,s and the history of the mt,s and who lived in the mts, and not just one given area of the mts .... i will stated this one time /" IMHO the stones are real . IMHO they were made By Kino the leader of the jesuits . IMHO they point out a tunnle and a stone house i not beleave this i know these sites are real and are in the mts where the maps point them out to be .. it is all in the translations of the stones " i stood on a mt looked at a great stone house .as big as a chruch and beautful to the eye as god's own work of his own hand ... you can beleave the stones or not thats up to you ! but JIM has my respect and you should face the facts he has willing shared with you ! if you do not beleave ,keep it to your self or state your opioion respectfully ... i stood there and looked at the stone house across from the tunnle !i could reach out and touch it ... it is real . ......with out jims under standing of the stones i would not have found the tunnle and some day i will say thanks .....

lets look at the logic... who would take that much time and wisdom to make these stones and than throw them out in the desert ? thats just out right dum to think anyone would just throw them away in the desert and hope they would be found ... .OK so logic tells us one of too things ..ether they were put there or lost there ! we just stated it would be totally dum and unlogicial to put them there . so what was the other choice ! you got they were most likely lost there . if so who made them and why is not the question, how and when is ! if they lost who could have lost them and how did they get to where they were at when found ...were other stones found at diffrent times ..? were they found near a trail ...yes did the trail leed into or out of the supers yes ! can we note any reason why the stones were made and by who yes ... IMHO the jesuits not only had a reason to make the stones they in fact had the wisdom and the skill to make them ..... and were in fac seen comeing and leaveing the supers with 240 pack mules . i ask you how often have you moved and lost things you never knew where they ended up after you got to where you were going ...? back in those days this way the normal turn of events ...often wagon trains cast out what could not be carried any more or often left or lost things along the way . ask any smart treasure hunter he will agree ... i found evidence that tills me Jim is right about the stones .. i have been in the mt's maping them and researching the stones and maps data . i should not make this statement for good reason but i will at this time ...."we found a area in the mt's that dose in fact fit every detail of the peralta - ruth map and the peralta stone! " if you do not want to look like a total fool do not say Jim is out right wrong untill you under stand all the evidence and what it means ,because he is in fact right ...

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Nah, you didn’t get off on the wrong foot at all. You just drifted too far away from our discussion about the Latin Heart and lost me somewhere in the Holmes Manuscript. Although I believe there is a possible link between the stone maps and the Lost Dutchman Mine. I do not think finding the LDM would solve the stone maps. According to your previous posts, you appear to have aligned yourself with some people whose knowledge and experience go way beyond mine, especially where the LDM is concerned. Those people can be far more help to you in your search for the LDM than I ever could. I am still struggling with the Roman Numerals myself and they consume the majority of my free time. Maybe one of the other angles you are working on will pan out for you and I can forget about these -%$#@- Roman Numerals. “Busca El Coazon” my friend.. Jim

Jim email i still welcome your input yet i can not talk about everything we found in our research here on the site ... i may have a clue about your latin heart you can take it for what it is ... i will state it openly so others know what is going on ... remember what i said about the dates the numbers are in the same code ...if you want me to explan email me ...or PM me and we will get off the site completely ...

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Az

Sorry but I don't have anything that would assist you in the avenue you are pursuing at this time. I wish you luck though, Jim

lol i was offering to help you . .. i getting some of the best equipment made and will be takeing a closer look at my 5 sites and if i was in the area i thaught you may want to try the equipment at your sites , by your self for a day or two ,why i am there in Az .. i am investing over $15,000 . in speicalized equipment made for this type of research & recovery ...but i guess you think you need no help from me, i could care ether way good luck

Blindblowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Az

I'm always interested in seeing how well specialized equipment works. I have owned Proton Magnetometers, Fluxgate Magnetometers and Double Box Metal Detectors myself. I have watched others use Ground Penetrating Radar. My experience has been that they all work very well on nice sandy beaches or flat farmland, but when working in rough terrain, mineralized or rocky areas that contain a lot of Iron and boulders you get a lot of weird anomalies that introduce false hopes. Never know though, you may have some equipment I have no experience with, and it may prove to be valuable where some of these other instruments have failed. Or, your area may be more suitable for the use of electronic equipment than the areas I have tried to use it in. Look me up when you get here and we'll sit down and talk about it. Jim

i agree most equipment is usless in that type of area . to senetive and it is worse than cheap junk with iron ore in the area ...faults readings and echoes... no i went another path looking for some over all effects that fit this area directly... full 3d viselized computer display , a $1000 for just this softwear ...so we can change the data to aline with the area it self ..weeding out some of the trash & faults reading , it takes one day of takeing 300 reading and one day to view the resaults for each site and 5 peices of equipment all feed into a state of art laptop computer even the cameras & GPS's tracking where each and every photo are taken and 500 ploted fix's i will be tracking & takeing around 8000 -- 10.2 megapixels photos in 10 days of my 5 sites and yes we have found away around batteries ...lol the reason we are takeing this path is we can double check to see if we have each photo before going on to the next photo . last time we took over 240 photos and got only about 1/3 of the photos taken . they were being blanked off the cameras chip in side the camera and some of the batteries went dead before we could even use the equipment . and they were new batteries the magnetic feilds in two areas are so strong we find the reasoning to work around this .... take my word for it JIM i got a few ideas most would not think of ,,..

jim heads up dude

here is something that was posted at another site you may be intrested in '.. Hey Randy, lets try and meet over in Tempe again sometime before the end of the month. I've got some news you will be interested in. gollum, I don't have any of Mitchell's personal effects. I have copies of all the MOEL Company incorporation papers, and Securities hearings and copies of some of Mitchell's correspondence, but I don't have the Aileen Tumlinson letter to Mitchell. When Mitchell died his attorney that also represented his MOEL company had all his personal papers and material. He was supposed to donate Mitchell's things to the Arizona State Archives at the old State Capital building. That never happened. I don't know for sure, but I believe someone convinced the attorney to donate the material elsewhere, and at a later time. Someone sent me a PM last night and asked how anyone could be sure the stones Mitchell donated weren't doctored up. Thats a good question, and no one can be certain they weren't doctored. No one can say with certainty they were. All anyone can do is look at what were the circumstances at that time. All the drama and controversy over the Stone Maps and MOEL occurred after Mitchell's involvement with the stones. The MOEL mis information and hysteria was all created by people who had no clue to what went on with MOEL, or Mitchell, or the Stone Maps. At the time Mitchell donated the Stone Maps there was no reason to doctor the maps because Mitchell had absolutely no interest in them as anything but a historic curiousity. The whole controversy that involved the Stone Maps and MOEL Company stems from the attempt of two people, B.J.Cochrane and his wife, to try and get the Stone Maps away from Mitchell. They tried to enter a legal claim against Mitchell for the maps but they never had any legal grounds to their claim and it was denied. All the drama and heresay and lies that were spread about MOEL and Mitchell, all the stories you have heard about fraud, bankruptcy, the FBI and Federal courts, were all cooked up and originated from the attempt of some people to try and get something they had no legal claim to. The Mineral Museum itself is to blame for a good amount of the controversy. In the mid 1970's a reporter named Paul Dean interviewed Lee Hammonds of the Arizona Mineral Museum concerning the Stone Maps. Hammonds was a good administrative assistant but had no contact with Mitchell or the Stone Maps and knew nothing of the history of MOEL, Mitchell or the maps. Hammonds merely repeated the rumors and tall tales he had heard during the controversy of the attempt to get the Stone Maps away from Mitchell. Paul Dean sensationalized the articles and they appeared in print in the Arizona Republic, Fronteir Times, Gold Dust Gazette and several other weekly publications. The general public read these mis representations and the bogus stories of fraud, bankruptcy and FBI involvement, and the stories continued to grow from there. People today still believe the drama and wild stories written about Mitchell and MOEL Company. Aurum_.. :"

sorry jim

here is the frist part posted by him ... "I have gotten several e-mails over the past few months from people asking questions about the Stone Maps and about what has been posted here on Treasure Net. In the summer of 1976 I was in the office of Mason Coggins, the curator and chief geologist at the Arizona Mineral Museum. The museum was then located at the Arizona State Fair complex in the Commercial Building along 19th avenue and McDowell road. In the office also that day was Clarence Mitchell. His wife, Grace, had recently passed away and Mitchell was donating some ore specimins, papers and a core drilling to the museum. Six years earlier, in 1970, Mitchell had donated a sizable amount of mining equipment, rock samples, and the Stone Maps to the museum. For this donation, the Mitchell's recieved a State Tax credit. I learned that day that the Stone Maps Mitchell donated in 1970 were a combination of original stone(s), and remakes of the originals. Mitchell had a partner in his Stone Map explorations, Elgin Kleiwald. When Mitchell donated his half of the maps to the museum in 1970, Kleiwald didn't want to let go of the originals in his possession. Mitchell wanted to donate a complete set so what the museum got was his (Mitchell's) originals, and remakes of Kleiwald's maps. Between the years 1961 (when Mitchell purchased the Stone Maps from Aileen Tumlinson) and 1970 when Mitchell donated the maps, he had at least 2 full sets reproduced. I don't know what ever happened to the originals Kleiwald kept but have a good idea who may have them. Anyone examining the Stone Maps that are in the possession of the Arizona Mineral Museum, should be able to tell the original stones from the reproduced stones. Just because the museum has reproduced stones, does not mean the stones are fake or are frauds. Some are original, some are remakes. That fact has never been an issue. The Mineral Museum has had several copies of the maps reproduced themselves over the years. The last count I knew was five seperate copies. I recently saw the stone Maps on display at a Flagg Foundation event in Mesa and can tell you the Stones that were on display were all reproductions. Mitchell put a very small mark on the stones he donated in 1970 and none of the Flagg Foundation Stones bore this mark. The reproduced stones are made from similar rock as the originals and are very authentic looking from a distance. The Flagg Foundation does not own the Stone Maps. They are on loan to them for fund raisers and special events. When the Arizona Mineral Museum moved to it's present home on Washington Street near the state Capital, the Stone Maps became tangled in a cloud of confusion. Nyle Nymath, who had his office on the second floor of the new Mineral Museum, told me one time he didn't know which stones were which anymore or who had the originals and who had the copies. Mason Coggins had it all sorted out when he left the Mineral Museum in the late 1990's but what has become of them at this date is anybody's guess. I have seen the stone maps on numerous occasions at Flagg Foundation shows and museum events, but I have not seen the Stones with Mitchell's mark since the 1970's, before the Mineral Museum moved to it's present location. It is my belief that the ladies who recently examined the Stone Maps for the Arizona Hiway's article, never saw the originals Mitchell donated, and even if they did, only half of those stones would have been originals. I don't know what someones conclusion would be when examining a combination of original and reproduction stones. The only other thing I can add is that Clarence Mitchell firmly believed the maps were authentic and led to some mine(s) and , or, treasure. He never found a treasure but he and Kleiwald found where they believed it may have been hidden. Whether or not it was where the stone maps directed someone, was never verified by Mitchell. The last time I saw Clarence Mitchell was at a Lost Dutchman type event in Apache Junction in the early 1990's . He said he was fighting cancer and thought he had it licked. He was in his 80's at the time. I think it was Clay Worst told me he died in the Junction about a year or so later. Aurum_ Matthew Roberts .....hope it clears up some of the confussion....

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Bill, I appreciate the thought, but I can't make heads or tails out of all that. Mike McChesney is on top of all that MOEL stuff and has made some good contacts for sorting it all out. I think he will probably have the final word that everyone will accept about whether it is applicable to the validity of the stone maps or not. When things get going like that, it is usually best not to jump into the middle of it. Let it run it's course and see who comes out on top in the end. If you don't agree with the end result... So What? You are still free to believe whatever you want. Are you practicing with any of that expensive equipment you bought yet?

jim, i posted a reply at this site called lost & found ... you need to read that . my offer to you still stands !...i have found the LDM and can prove it 100% ....there will be 5 of us all togather , me and my brother my step son , another man ,and you ...

Bill Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

No....... Don't be counting me in on any Partnerships there Buddy. I'm just an observer interested in seeing how well your equipment works. I might be able to be of some help as a Technical Consultant or provide some horse flesh for getting you packed in there, but If you find anything with it, it's all YOURS! I might want to borrow the equipment for a day or two after you finish with it though.

have it your way , good luck ...

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

I know you believe you have found the Lost Dutchman Mine and solved the Peralta Stone Maps, because of the things you have found out in the mountains. You are not the first and you won't be the last. There are dozens of dozens of old mine workings in the Superstitions. If you go to the BLM and look at the old claim records, you will find hundreds of old mining claims recorded in the Superstition mountains. Every time someone finds one of them, they think they have solved everything. I have personally found three drifts going back in the side of a ridge over 100 feet. One of then has over 300 feet of underground tunnels associated with it. I have also found many shafts going straight down, anywhere from 20 to 70 feet. I cannot even remember how many shafts I have found or been shown that are only 10 - 15 feet deep. Everyone that ever filed a claim out there did some digging in the way of annual assessment work. Of all the workings I have seen, I have NEVER found anything in or around them that verified that they were actually getting any precious metals out of them. People dig for all kinds of reasons. An old map they found or bought. A story with good directions. A monument that someone made for navigational purposes... It goes on and on and on. The point I am trying to make, is that the things you have found can be found all over the Superstitions. Some monuments were 20th century mining claim markers. Most Saguaro marks were made by claim holders marking the trail to their claims. I am not trying to discourage you, but I am trying to get you to slow down and think again about investing the money you got from selling your farm, into a very expensive venture that could very likely end with nothing to show for it. Before you invest in any more expensive electronic equipment, I would suggest that you hire someone that already has some of it, to go out and use it in your area. Hire a mining expert to go along and do an evaluation of the area at the same time. It is true that this could cost you thousands of dollars, but the way you have been talking in some of your e-mails, you are heading in a direction that could cost you TENS of thousands of dollars. Farms are not easy things to come by, and once you sell one, the odds are that you will never have another one. Especially if you squander all the money away on something like a search for a lost mine or buried treasure. You really should spend some time researching the BLM records for old mining claims in your area, to see if what you are looking at is an old registered mining claim, before you invest the profits from the farm you sold in anything else. You probably won't listen to any of this, and go full steam ahead throwing caution to the wind... But I had to try. Jim

and thats comeing from a man that spent 10 years of his life as a dutch hunter ... LOL to take care jim ! i know what i am looking for and i know what i found !

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

10 years? Where have you been for the last 8 years? I am working on my 19th year now. In 2009 it will be 20 years that I have been chasing the legend in the field. I have another 20 years of reading about it before I ever entered the Superstition mountains. I am not insinuating that I no longer believe it exists. With every passing year my belief has grown stronger. What I AM trying to tell you, is that I don't believe, that you should Sell-The-Farm and gamble the proceeds on your interpretations of what you have read. I don’t even believe you should gamble them on your interpretations of what you think you have seen. That is just my opinion, but it is based on almost 40 years of working on separating the wheat from the chaff. From what I have seen in your writing. I think you are gambling on more chaff than wheat. I would like to see how well the equipment you have already purchased works in the field, but I don’t have high expectations for you finding anything with it in the area where you plan to use it. I wouldn’t recommend that you buy any more if you can rent it, or hire someone that already owns it. Keep your financial investment as small as you can. The odds of your success are astronomically against you.

i would agree if i didnt have 27 1/2 years in the research ..i can aford it !

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

I can see that you have the bit in your teeth, and I know better to stand in front of man at a time like that. You would plow right over the top of me and my advice without ever looking back. Lomg shots do come in now and then. When they do, the payoff is always big. Nothing else I can say but be carefull out there and Good Luck!

i just want to be sailing the open sea someday and come across a nother man sailing along his crose in life , owning his own wind and sailing his home in a freedom few ever under stand ... i would be happy if that man was you !jim ... some things do come true ...

i am sad to say that my expedition 3 is on hold , my brother (electrical engneer and computer programmer ) had a full blowen heart attack yesterday ..... untill i can find a replacement for him the expedition is at real risk ... with 25 years hands on working in the thouse fields i dont no anyone even close to filling that job at this point time .. stay safe stay free

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Sorry to hear that Bob. Hope he makes a speedy recovery!

his doctor says it was caused from high blood pressure and that got him on some good blood thiners and the doctor says he should be alright by the fall to go on the expedition .. so things are alright for now ....i am just glad he did not have it in the mts ...so he is do better now than he was ...

Blindbowman where are you????? germ

Blindbowman PLEASE Write me at germs50@yahoo.com I need to "TALK" to YOU!! Thanks "the germ"

up date the blindbowman

we beleave we have id part of pictorgraph of the uto-aztecan O'odham (pima and papago ) tribes at my site 4 ....we found a pictorgraph of Xipe totec that wears a sheld on his right knee that 100% matches the sign found over the tunnle at site 4 ...this circle in a circle shows up in 5 out of the 8 known stones .... the research goes on !

do to trolls i will no longer be posting on the web sites i wish you all luck

Blindbowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Don't let the trolls bother you Buddy. It's all part of having your name on the wall. The higher your name gets, the more they take pot-shots at it. I may not agree with everything you say, but I stand firmly behind your right to say it! You have a large personal investment of time and resources in the search for whatever it is that lay hidden in the Superstition Mountains. Whether you ever find it or not, your story becomes a permanant part of the record of those who came before you, and those that will follow behind you. They can never take that away from you! Take a deep breath, shake it off, and just keep putting one foot in front of the other. "The real pleasure is in the search". Jim

jim the blindbowman

we have undisputable evidence that we are in the right area .. are research has taken us miles from where we started , but it has paid off .... i dont worry about the na sayers ... it makes me word twice as hard to prove what i saw is the LDM .. my sighting makes my path more clear than most ... yes , i did say undisputable evidence ...

Bowman Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

I know what you mean. Sometimes it appears to be a moving target. No mater how much progress one makes, there is always the thrill of just beginning. In order to find the location of the lost Dutchman mine and solve the mystery of the stone maps it is going to take a level of obsession and tenacity that the world has not known since Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison. You might have enough of both to get the job done.

Is there a conspiracy? stenowrite Apache Junction

Is there an effort on the part of business owners, mining museums, writers, etc. in Apache Junction to keep the Found Dutchman's Mine from ever being proved? What would happen if it was found? Could this community get behind exploiting this new-found 8th Greatest Unsolved Mystery in all the world. I think people from all over the world would come to see a protected Lost Dutchman Mine, aka Peralta Mine.

Stenowrite Jim Hatt Apache Junction, Arizona

Srenowrite, Your comment is short and to the point. I know there are a lot of people that share your concern about a conspiracy, so I will do my best to present you with a broad response that I hope will allow you to answer your own question. As you mentioned, the news about someone finding the Lost Dutchman Mine (LDM) would be a great boost for tourism in Apache Junction, and people would come from all over the world if nothing more than just to view photographs of it and samples of ore from the mine. Jacob Waltz was supposed to have told Julia Thomas (according to her story) that there was an unfinished tunnel on the hillside below the shaft he got the gold out of, and that on his last trip to the mine he hid his mining tools and camp equipment in the tunnel and walled it up. The tools and equipment would be a wonderful museum display themselves. Additionally, the news and a display with the items mentioned above would finally vindicate the community (Apache Junction) that was born from the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine and has endured much criticism because of it. If there is a conspiracy of some kind, I wouldn’t expect it to be organized by the business owners, museums and writers of Apache Junction. Although there are forces that appear to have an agenda that includes erasing the history of the LDM and various other lost mine and buried treasure stories related to the Superstition Mountains. I wouldn’t go so far as calling it a conspiracy. The United States Government via the U.S. Forest Service has an agenda of preserving the Superstition Wilderness Area for future generations to enjoy. A lot of history has been erased in the mountains by the U.S.F.S through their efforts to restore the area to it’s natural condition and preserve it in accordance with that agenda. This may appear to be a conspiracy to some, but in all fairness to the U.S.F.S. their agenda is for the good of the many and only at the expense of a few. As far as anyone being able to PROVE that the LDM had been found is concerned… The difficulties with proving that the LDM or an old Peralta Mine has been found are many. Not because we have no clues or landmarks we could use to verify the identity of an old mine, but to the contrary, we have too many! (and all too often they contradict each other) I have in my “Dutchman” library over 100 books and another 200+ magazines, pamphlets, articles, manuscripts and journals, most of which introduce some unique clue or landmark to the LDM or a lost Peralta mine. These clues come from a wide variety of sources beginning with the most well documented people who personally knew Jacob Waltz. Ie: Julia Thomas, Rhiney Petrasch and Dick Holmes. Each of them claimed that their information came directly from the lips of Waltz. Waltz knew other individuals that lived in the city of phoenix during the last years of his life, and it is reasonable to assume that he may have discussed his mine and mentioned a few details about it, or the area surrounding it to them also. For instance, Tom Kollenborn has written about a man named Bill Cage who was a local Blacksmith in Phoenix during right time period, who claimed to have known Waltz and acquired information about the LDM description and location directly from him. Tom’s father knew Mr. Cage and gleaned bits and pieces of information from him over the years (little or none of which corresponded with information from other sources). Because of the possibility that Waltz did confide in other unknown individuals, we cannot dismiss the validity of any clue just because it did not originate from Thomas, Petrasch or Holmes or coincide with their clues. Some legendary clues to the location of a rich mine located in the Superstition Mountains originate with Native American legends and lore, or Mexicans that have ventured North from Old Mexico in search of rich mines that had been worked by their ancestors. During the last 100+ years, all of these directions, maps, clues and landmarks have been gleaned from all the lore and included in the multitude of published material which has become a part of the Legend of Superstition Mountain and the LDM. I don’t mean to give the impression that I believe that the majority of the directions, maps, clues and landmarks are bogus and lead to nothing. My familiarity with the legends and experience in the mountains has actually led me to the conclusion that a large number of them are in fact valid and do apply to old Mexican or Spanish mining locations in the Superstitions, even though they probably do not apply to the particular location that was found and worked by Jacob Waltz and become known as the Lost Dutchman Mine. In the last 18 years, I have spent between 70 and 100 days per year, every year, traveling the trails and climbing the ridges where there are no trails in the Superstitions. During this time, I have found no less that 6 places where I can pull together a respectable number of clues or landmarks in the immediate area of an old mine, and make a good case for it being the LDM or an old Peralta mine. Some of these locations appear to have been untouched in the last 100-200 years and some show signs of having been worked or reworked in the early to mid 20th century. None of them show any indication of an 18” quartz vein, as described by Homes who claimed that Waltz described the source of his gold as being an 18 inch vein or quartz. Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch never mentioned Waltz talking about an 18” quartz vein, so is that, or is it not a valid clue? The largest surviving sample of “Dutchman” ore (The famous Matchbox) is little more than 1” wide, so the vein could have been as narrow as that. Of the 8 places I have found, good cases can also be made for the possibility of them being the location of the Two Soldiers mine, the Dr. Thorne Mine, Joe Deering’s Mine, Jenkins’ Lost Load or any one of a dozen other lost mines. I think most people can see what I am leading up to with this. If we eliminate all the maps, landmarks and clues except the ones that came directly from Thomas, Petrasch, Holmes and Cage, we still have nothing more than second hand clues to work with in our attempt to verify that the LDM has been found. We DO NOT and NEVER WILL know exactly what Jacob Waltz said anyone. There are NO clues that can be verified as coming directly from the his lips. There are only clues which come from second parties who claimed that they came from Waltz. Did those parties tell the truth? The “Whole Truth” and nothing but the Truth? Probably not! It is my guess that Thomas, Petrasch, Holmes and Cage all held something back, and distorted some of the information that they did let out, in order to keep anyone from beating them to the mine. In view of all the above, who is alive today that would be qualified to identify and validate that the mine has been found? If it could be identified and validated by the existence of landmarks in the immediate area, I would have located it 6 times already. In 6 different places that are miles apart! As any serious student of the legends of Superstition Mountain will tell you. If the LDM is ever found and validated, it will be through the nature and composition of the ore. All ore deposits contain unique “Fingerprints” consisting of various amounts of Trace Elements & Minerals. The “Fingerprint” of the LDM is known and has been documented. When/if the ore sample is ever brought out of the mountains that has the correct “Fingerprint”, the find will be validated. We may read about it in the newspapers and we may not. For all I know, it could have already happened, but will never be in the news. Stenowrite, One thing I am sure of … If it is ever found and the news is made public. The “business owners, mining museums, writers, etc” will not be conspiring to cover up the news! They will be shouting about it louder than anyone else. Jim Hatt

well stated the blindbowman

but i do go on record as requesting treasure trove permits ....with the usfs .... because yes the