THE LATIN HEART

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Jim Hatt

Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:07 pm

somehiker wrote:And if one were to backtrack that trail a ways,would he find a hillside with a heart and an inverse "L"?

Regards:SH.
No, That hill is about 14 miles S/E of Florence Junction, near the Gila River. It could be assumed to be along the old trail across the desert back to Mexico tho. (A lower extension of the same trail)

Finger rings? What's the rest of the story?

Jim

P.S. I was on my way to photograph that hillside, when I had my BAD DAY ON BATTLEAXE ROAD experience. http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1265

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Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by somehiker » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:34 pm

Do a search using "Jesuit Trade Rings"
The Jesuits wore rings with the "Latin Heart",with and without the "L" for "Loyalty or Loyola"
and also gave them to converts.Many other "symbols" are found on other Jesuit "trade rings"
dating as far back as the very early 1600's.

This book(Indian culture and European trade goods) has a drawing of a selection of such rings on page 77.It can be found in Google Books.

I have heard tell that one such ring was found near a popular trailhead.It was thought to have been lost by a modern hiker at the time.May not have been a "modern" hiker after all.

Regards:SH

Jim Hatt

Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:46 pm

somehiker wrote:
I have heard tell that one such ring was found near a popular trailhead.

Regards:SH
Do not misunderstand me SH, I'm not saying that i don't believe you. But, why would the finder of such a ring be keeping the story quiet? I could understand if it had something engraved on it, that might be a clue to a certain location. But he wouldn't have to disclose that.

The only thing that would make sense, is that he didn't want to go through what the finder of the Latin Heart itself went through, after he found it. Or... Maybe he has already had a similar experience?

If I am prying just let me know. It's just that you really got my attention here. :shock:

Jim

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Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by somehiker » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:26 pm

I have read your Bad Day account,which is why I mentioned the hillside.The "scrapings" may have been the "marker" for the beginning of the "long trail" to the "Heart Stone" on a map that neither we nor the Jesuits have.Just musing,of course,but I have found nothing,as yet,that sheds light on the meaning of an inverse L.

Regards:SH.

The ring itself is not that big a deal.Just a heart with an normal upright L.I really only mentioned it because it's topical and that that it has been claimed that the "Latin" heart as depicted on the maps,etc was not used as a symbol prior to the mid 1800's,as I recall.
Apparently they are not uncommon and may be found on E-Bay and collector sites.Without a receipt of purchase,however,the finder might be accused of doing something illegal.Aside from that problem,though,the ring could be a clue to Jesuits or their followers having frequented the area where the ring was found.I cannot,at this time,say where it was found.I will say that it is likely of higher value than the average Jesuit ring,and in retrospect probably was once worn by someone within the order itself.

Jim Hatt

Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:09 pm

somehiker wrote:Without a receipt of purchase, however, the finder might be accused of doing something illegal.
That is always the big "catch" SH.

If we knew about all the things in private collections, that the owners are afraid to talk about, for the same reason. I think it would have a large impact, on how some non-believers felt, about the authenticity of the stone maps.

Nice little addition to the topic. Thanks for posting it.

Jim

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Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by somehiker » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:32 pm

I am pretty sure that the question of "from what material the Latin Heart was made" has been posed before.I don't recall the answer.Could it have been made with "brick clay" or pottery clay?Does a photo exist of the actual LH?

Regards:SH.

Jim Hatt

Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:12 pm

There are no photos of it that I know of SH.

Never know tho. One may surface someday. I am curious about why you specifically mention "brick clay" or pottery clay. Most people assume it was made of the same stone that the other heart was made of. (It wasn't)

I don't know what kind of rock it was, but Bill Hidden saw it and said it was a black rock. The story is that the man who found it, rolled it up in a piece of canvas and hit it repeatedly with a sledge hammer, and it pretty much turned to powder.

I WISH rock was that easy to crush to powder! It very well could have been made from some kind of clay. That would explain several things.

1 -Why, it was so easy to crush
2- How, who ever made it could get all that fine detail carved into it.
3 -The unusual color.

I have never seen any black rock in the Superstitions other than obsidian, and nobody would be able to do any carving in that without modern equipment. (Like maybe a laser) I can't imagine how they would work it down into a flat slab, and I have never seen a piece of obsidian as large as the Latin Heart was.

I never considered the idea, that it might have been made from clay. What started you thinking along those lines?

Jim

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Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by djui5 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:48 pm

Jim,
It could have been Basalt which is in high abundance back there, or the other possibility is it came from an ancient ruin that was burned a LONG time ago, then buried under dirt/etc and eventually crushed into a somewhat hard rock over time. This coulda been taken out of a deep mine somewhere.

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Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by somehiker » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:36 am

It also may have been carved from a slab of black slate.The spanish often used slate for roofing tiles,although the material tends to splinter,rather than powder when struck.Basalt,on the other hand,can be crushed to a powder,and is sometimes added to clay in order to increase the heat resistance and durability.Mortar for fire brick is one such use.Such mortar may have used for lining a kiln as well.Easy to mould and easy to carve until it has set,it would have been an excellent choice for a material from which to quickly fashion and inscribe something like the LH.

Regards:SH.

Jim Hatt

Re: THE LATIN HEART

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:52 pm

SH,

Now that I think of it. I believe "Slate" was the word that was used to describe the material. At least in the sense that it looked similar to slate. Slate would be smooth enough to allow the fine detailed carving that appeared on the Latin Heart, but could it have been soft enough to have been etched?

Jim

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