Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

AshtonPage · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:50 am

azatrox wrote:

With reference to the doodle....

We've pretty much established that that drawing can represent any number of places in the Supes, from any number of vantage points. So the drawing (assuming of course that it was drawn by Jacob W. and his intent in doing so was to communicate the location or approximate location of his mine) by itself is of marginal value.

Hi Kris,

From my own personal interpretation and experience, my personal opinion is I am going to disagree with that. Because of the vertical lines drawn on the doodle (which I believe are clearly visible in the topography) and the three peaks on the ledge of the doodle, I believe the location of the doodle is unique and not in any number of locations.

If I am wrong about my area, then I will post everything I have found. But patience is a virtue as I can only make it to the hills once or twice a year.

Best,
Ashton

AshtonPage · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:25 pm

cubfan64 wrote:

Someone I know reminded me of the following information concerning the "doodles."

Quote:

I realize the questions mainly centered on Corbin's source for the "Waltz doodle" drawing (the one showing Weaver's Needle, possible reversed, as viewed from above and through a saddle)

Hi Cubfan,

Your quote did not attribute any author but it is an excellent point:

>> I realize the questions mainly centered on Corbin's source for the "Waltz doodle" drawing (the one showing Weaver's Needle, possible reversed, as viewed from above and through a saddle) << End quote

Pictures I have seen from other people of what they believe to be the doodle are usually taken from the canyon floor looking up –or- from a hill top looking across (level) at a saddle on the horizon. I believe they are in the wrong location because I think that the PERSPECTIVE of the doodle is viewed from above – that is to say, you’re looking down into the valley. Higham says that it is “from a position above the cave, not the mine”. That description leads me to believe that Higham may have been correct in his assessment of the doodle. But if that is the case, then one has to wonder -> just exactly where did Higham get this information?

There are no easy answers.

Best,
Ashton

i-tsari-tsu-i · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 1:04 pm

AshtonPage wrote:

Thanks, Jim

Hopefully I’m not the only one writing about this.

People from neophytes to old-pros read these forums, so I will explain: the first thing folks notice about the doodle is that it appears to be backwards because of the high-low peaks on Weavers Needle. Assuming the doodle is looking at the general area of the mine, that would place the LDM West of Weaver’s Needle – not very likely.
This means the drawing is reversed, or more precisely – Weaver’s Needle is reversed. Although reversing ONLY Weaver’s Needle could have been accidental, it is highly doubtful Waltz would deliberately confuse the issue further to Reiney, who was having trouble understanding the mine’s location in the first place – see Sims pg 112 where Waltz chides Reiney "You're not listening. You've got to pay attention. That mine is hard to find."

Meaning, I believe the entire sketch is reversed. I have no problem with this because back in the day (before computers, personal light boxes, etc.) when people made a tracing, the original drawing was held against window and a second sheet of blank paper was placed over it. I remember doing it this way myself as a younger man. Sometimes, you can get a clearer image when you turn the original backwards so the ink or pencil portion faces the outside. I also remember doing that myself to get a better image for tracing.

My point is – I personally have no problem with the image being reversed because (I believe) it is a tracing or was copied from a tracing. But I have not seen the original, so I may be wrong about this – please feel free to comment.

There are other things about the doodle, but first I would like to hear what others think about the image being reversed as this is one of the greater objections to the doodle.

Best,
Ashton

__________________________
Ashton,

Believe this is the view you are looking at in the drawing:

Take care,

Joe

i-tsari-tsu-i · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Ashton,

"Assuming the doodle is looking at the general area of the mine, that would place the LDM West of Weaver’s Needle – not very likely."

If that drawing is the only evidence suggesting that the mine might be west of Weaver's Needle, you might be correct.

Here are a few additional pieces of evidence:

When Julia and Rhiney made their first attempt to enter the range, following Waltz's spoken directions, they went to Hog Canyon and tried to drive their wagon up the canyon towards the top of the ridge.

When A. Ruth camped at Willow Spring, he was following the directions from P.C. Bicknell's San Francisto newspaper article. It seems a pretty sure bet that Bic got that information from Julia or Rhiney. If that's true, it could only have come from Waltz.

There is much more, but those two things seem to indicate the mine is west of Weaver's Needle.

Good luck and take care,

Joe

AshtonPage · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 6:48 pm

Hi Joe,

I’ve considered the gap in West Boulder as a possibility – but, at least according to Sims story, too many landmarks are missing for me to be convinced that is the location.

However, actions do speak louder than words – So I’ve always wondered why Julia and Reiney would enter via Hog Canyon IF Waltz had told them he would point out the trail from the board house. Either they were totally lost -=or=- the story they told (as it is handed down to us) is a complete fabrication. Either way, it doesn’t do much to bolster confidence in the Sims \ Bark camp.

If I’m interpreting Sims and my ‘corrupted’ Barks Notes correctly, then I think Julia and Reiney were lost from the onset. Glover mentions that he has a copy of the ‘original’ Barks Notes and I would be seriously interested in knowing if, according to the ‘original’ Notes, Reiney actually said ‘If we would go down “DUE EAST” from the center peak, we would find the mine.’ Because I’m starting to believe that Reiney got his directions confused – or the notes are corrupted – or I’m in the wrong spot. Also, being as I’ve stated I do not think there was a Weiser, it doesn’t help that the Weiser map shows three peaks due west of the mine.

It’s been said that ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ and I’m at that point where I know just enough to be able to make a pretty good case for either Sims, or Holmes, or whomever versions. Meaning – I’m almost as lost as Julia and Reiney were.

Best,
Ashton

i-tsari-tsu-i · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 10:29 pm

Ashton,

"I’ve considered the gap in West Boulder as a possibility – but, at least according to Sims story, too many landmarks are missing for me to be convinced that is the location."

Which landmarks do you believe are missing?

Thanks,

Joe

AshtonPage · **Posted:** Thu May 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi Joe,

I really don’t want to seem like a jerk or that I’m spouting off a bunch of stuff that I can’t back up. So I will say that I believe Sims made a Freudian slip in his book. When I read it, that was one of those ‘a-ha’ moments for me -> but posting it will bring others too close to where I am. Until I’ve had a chance to check out my area more thoroughly, it needs to stay with me.

I once posted I thought the shaft was only 40 – 50 feet deep and Silent Hunter picked up on it and asked ‘why would you say that?’. Oops, I didn’t want to answer him (at that time) but my reason was there is a walled up tunnel about 45’ below an indent that could be a shaft. My point being is that I need to only post stuff that I’m willing to share my supporting evidence on.

I know this seems like a cop-out and I apologize for that, but I’m sure other people can understand my reasoning. Going forward I will only post stuff that I’m willing to share the details on.

Thanks,
Ashton

i-tsari-tsu-i · **Posted:** Fri May 18, 2012 9:01 am

Ashton,

Not to worry. Few people will follow up on their claims about what they have found in the Superstitions. When they do, it is usually with photos of natural geololgical features that look like....something.
They can be found everywhere.

My position is a little different in that I am now willing to share everything I have found. Most would say that shows the worth of those things. :lol:

Good luck,

Joe

AshtonPage · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:46 pm

Hey All,

In the thread “Did Waltz lie to Julia and Reiney” - SomeHiker asked what the Doodle shows – which is a good question because the general agreement is; there is no general agreement on what the Doodle shows. Which started me thinking...

The interesting is that except for Weaver’s Needle, the doodle doesn’t seem to show anything in particular - which is not what one would expect from a drawing whose express purpose should be to show something in particular. This makes the doodle itself is sort of a mystery – UNLESS our reports of Waltz saying that you could walk right past the mine and never see it are accurate. My point is that according to Waltz, for some unknown reason you really can’t see the mine - even when you’re close to it. Now if you can’t see the mine distinctly then you can’t draw the mine distinctly.

I’m saying that if the mine is so well camouflaged that you can’t draw an effective picture showing “this is it” then the most probable thing I would expect someone would draw is; what you see when you are at the mine. Just something to think about and perhaps it gives some credibility to the position that the doodle might be showing “this is what you see when you are at the mine.”

Best,
Ashton

i-tsari-tsu-i · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:13 pm

Ashton,

I don't know why Waltz's drawing is being characterized as a "doodle". Considering the circumstances, which I have mentioned, it seems to be a fairly accurate drawing/picture.

If the mine is up that ravine, the directions to get to it would be fairly straightforward. Go to the canyon, directly below the saddle I have drawn............You can fill in the blank space. I realize that is way too simple for a mine that has remained lost for so many years, but it's a possibility.

Good luck,

Joe

Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

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