Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Matthew Roberts » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:59 pm

jhowlett,

Weavers Needle was widely known as El Sombrero and Sombrero Butte by many before PC Bicknell wrote his famous article in 1894. Bicknell did not himself make up the name El Sombrero for his article. He took the name from an earlier article that appeared in the 1870's time frame. The 2500 ft. elevation given by Bicknell does not necessarily mean Weavers Needle is 2500 ft. above "sea level". If you read what Bicknell wrote he says it rises 2500 ft. among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses. Either way, there was no confusion that when Bicknell spoke of Weavers Needle he was calling it by it's lesser known name of El Sombrero.

In December of 1894 Pierrepont C. Bicknell sold the San Francisco Chronicle several articles he had written. One of them with the title, One of Arizona’s Lost El Dorado’s A Mine in the Superstition Mountains. The Half-Told Tale of an Old Miser. Afraid to Return to the Source of his Mysterious Wealth.

In that article Bicknell said this :


"The district designated is not extensive. It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, a prominent and fantastic pinnacle of volcanic tufa that rises to a height of 2500 feet among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock. One can reach its base only after struggling through a network of boulder-choked canyons and well-nigh impenetrable thickets. In its weird loneliness it seems an index finger marking the location of some hidden mystery. Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view, to a high-crowned pointed sombrero the Mexicans and Indians call it Sombrero butte, or rather El Sombrero, and it is the landmark around which cluster all the tales of treasure referred to, whether Indian, Mexican or frontiersman. Americans have given it the name of Weaver's Needle, in memory of old Paulin Weaver, the well-known trapper and pioneer of the Southwest."

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Matthew Roberts » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:35 pm

El Sombrero Sombrero Butte.jpg

From PC Bicknells article.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by somehiker » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:01 pm

jhowlett wrote:p368071473-3.jpg El Sombrero on Peralta map 2500 ft Weavers Needle 4555 ft. Wayne do you know the story or source of the Peralta map copy that has 2500 ft. Thanks Jeff.
Jeff:

As Matthew has said, the 2500' notation on that version of the Perfil Mapa comes from Bicknell's early article.
Who made that note, and wrote the rest of the names on the drawing is anyone's guess, but I think most believe it was Adolph Ruth or his son Erwin who brought the Perfil Map to the LDM table.
Here's some more reading for you.....http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/peralta.htm

Regards:SH.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:55 pm

jhowlett wrote:Marius I mean this with all respect because I ask this earlier, when or whom historically referred to El Sombrero as Weavers Needle it appears the Mexican miners referred to El Sombrero, but I cannot find where it was described by them in anyway that it was the same as Weavers Needle. Also the stones that many myself included feel are a key to the location has nothing on them about WN. The Witches hat is not Weavers Needle I am sure and in December we will share this info. With all respect I want to know does anyone know who prier to the 20th century referred To ES as WN, this a serious question if anyone knows please post.

With all respect Jeff Howlett
Howdy Jeff,

Here is further proof that Weavers Needle is "El Sombrero".

You just have to read "The Salazar Survey" by Clay Worst to find that it was named by the Peraltas themselves. They surveyed the area in April of 1854, and made a map that showed "El Sombrero" to be 14 kilometers South of the Rio Salado. You will find that Weavers Needle is exactly 14 kilometers from the Salt River's bend leaving no doubt what so ever.

Homar P. Olivarez

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Wayne and Mathew I just spent 90 minutes with my longest post and did not save as I went and REA site came on and knocked me off, I am going to bed. Jeff.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Wayne and Mathew I just spent 90 minutes with my longest post and did not save as I went and REA site came on and knocked me off, I am going to bed. Jeff.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:40 am

Wayne and Mathew I have a little time Wayne I know you have a degree from Arizona, so you have taken English Comp 1 & 2, that is one of the reasons your writing flows with a rhythm and structure that is easy to follow. When you wrote a paper in Early American History they taught about secondary sources, and the danger of using them is one of biggest problems in writing Historical journals. I am Writing a book and my co author is a published History professor, and we have talked at length about just this topic. I will be more specific over the weekend when I have more time and mean this with all respect but so far and I could be wrong but the sources on El Sombrero being Weavers needle is only conclusive if the Peraltas themselves said it was so. I would like to see a copy of the Salazar Survey. Not what someone said it said. Look for a 150 years everybody has been looking in the wrong place, so something is roughen in Denmark somewhere and the explanation of 2500 ft is a perfect example that is all second hand if you really read it. Show us the a copy of the original Salazar Survey. He says, she says is not historically a fact, and the English written word is very powerful and can be very misleading if it is second hand. Look I am on the same page as I hope we all are, but we need to look at these past writing that we all so much admire with an eye between the lines and try to look from a different angle. The Peralata's had an El Sombrero, yes but show me factually where they said it was Weaver's Needle. For example look at a post moderated by Wayne Dec 26 2011 Sombrero Mt by Two Guns. With all respect to everyone. Jeff

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:45 am

I will have to copy this and send it later ( had a problem)- but just saw a copy in Quest for gold of one of three maps of Ruth that had Weavers Needle to the right (cima) and And El Sombrero to the left as different structures, and also had added a peak onto El Sombrero that have never seen before, talk about the left hand not knowing, the whole thing is a fluster cluck. Jeff.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Marius » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:07 am

Jeff

Every " treasure " map has its secrets , and someone who want to " read " it , need to knows some treasure signs and to have some skills to decipher these type of maps .
I want to write my version/opinion on how to " unlock " the Perfil map .
First , the complete arrow in the map is a Spanish treasure sign which means " opposite direction " and this means how the map should be reversed .
But this is not enough .The author left a tip/hint on the map which is the " N with dot "for the north/norte and the " S with dot " for the south/sur . This means how when we reverse the map , the north become south and automatically the peaks which are in front should move behind the scene . SO , the " S . CIMA " is now literally the south peak . Is what the author shows and means .
The words " SIERRA MAS ALTA EN MEDIO DE " is for what is missed in the drawing , and means how in the middle of the scene exist a mountain/ridge . So , the canyon which appears in the map is in reality a side canyon .

The rest is a matter of intuition and a knowledge of the region .
Also , you should take the "" EL SOMNRERO " as Weavers Needle . This peak was named " Weavers needle " , more after the Peraltas left the region .

Marius
Last edited by Marius on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Choto » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:14 am

jhowlett wrote:I will have to copy this and send it later ( had a problem)- but just saw a copy in Quest for gold of one of three maps of Ruth that had Weavers Needle to the right (cima) and And El Sombrero to the left as different structures, and also had added a peak onto El Sombrero that have never seen before, talk about the left hand not knowing, the whole thing is a fluster cluck. Jeff.
If I were seriously looking for a reference to Weaver's Needle before it became known by that name, I would reach out to Mission San Xavier del Bac, Tucson, AZ (info@sanxaviermission.org) and ask for help. If a record exists, the mission might be your best option for finding it.

When you read your copy of the Salazar Survey, note that there should be three early photographs of Weaver's, located somewhere. Just an opinion but, if recovered, these may be the oldest surviving photographs taken in Arizona, predating the Ives expedition images by four years. If found, they would be priceless. IMO.

"Lt. Joseph Christmas Ives is one of the earliest persons acknowledging making photographs in Arizona. Ives piloted the U. S. Explorer to chart the course of the Colorado River in the U. S. Army Corps of Topographical Engineers survey of 1857 and 58. The Ives expedition marked a number of firsts related to Arizona history. At his Northernmost travels along the Colorado River, Ives was likely the first white man to reach the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Photographs attributed to Ives and the expedition are some of the earliest photographic images of Arizona located to date."

A Photographic History of Arizona 1850 - 1920

"That’s because daguerreotypes were warmly embraced in the United States—in 1853, there were more daguerreotype galleries in New York City than there were in the whole of England."


http://www.collectorsweekly.com/photogr ... erreotypes


More: http://www.daguerre.org/

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