Ashton - I tend to be VERY similar in my approach to problems as you. I am a pessimist by nature, and I don't know exactly why, but whenver I'm involved in trying to solve a problem with other people, my first instinct is ALWAYS to try to come up with reasons why a solution WON'T work. I think my system is just geared that way and I mentally make a list of all the ideas and look for the ones that I think have the best chance to succeed.

It drives my wife crazy and makes me an annoying team member at work. I do my best to keep those pessimistic voices in my head, but they often comes out and I don't mean anything by them - it's just the way I work through problems I guess.

I may be dumb not sure but i am confused in conatsers book page 30-31 when waltz talks about how to get to the mine he says you go to n/s trending canyon after you find cave with stone house keep going down the canyon sevral miles observing east wall to an undetermend distance looking up on east wall you will see a rock formation shaped like a face (here is where i get confused if i am looking up the east wall and see a rock formation that looks like a face how can that formation face the east wouldnt it kind of have to be looking my way to say hey that looks like a face if that is the case than the face would be facing west but yet he said directly across the ravine and facing the east looking down at the mine in order to face east the formation would have to be on the west wall right wrong not sure )makes no sense to me seems backward any help

stewed - that's the same point I made a few posts back. I think the only explanation is that Conatser is getting her E/W and N/S confused as she's done a few times before.

That alone makes it hard to pin down the correct location.

Hi stewed, The first thing that I want to point out about your post is that you are posting Waltz's words as if you are quoting them directly from him. At the very best... Those words came from Waltz, through Julia or Rhiney, through Jim Bark, through John Spangler, through Estee Conatser. The should never be taken or presented as Waltz actually said.

If you go back to page 3 of this topic, you will see that we were all as confused as you are, but we finally determined that Conatser had a terrible problem with the 4 cardinal compass points and her inconsistent use of the words Canyon and Ravine.

To get an idea of how confused she was with compass points. Go to page 84 in the book where she says:

Speaking of her LDM Jr.

"For anyone who might be interested in visiting the mine, it is located, as previously described, high on the side of a mountain which is located east of Tortilla Mountain on the east side of Tortilla Creek, and about one and one half mile south of Tortilla Ranch.

Her LDM Jr. does exist, but you will find it approx. 1 1/2 mile EAST not SOUTH of Tortilla Ranch.

I believe her list of landmarks close to the mine, are about as good as thy come, but her explanations of to use them are all very questionable.

Best,

Jim

Hi All,

One thing that has been nagging me is that something was important enough to cause Estee to write “This is the key” (pg 31). I don’t think she would write that sort of a thing on a whim. While the mine itself is so cleverly concealed that you could almost be on it without seeing it, the rock face is (apparently) clearly visible – assuming you’re “carefully observing” the canyon wall.

We’ve gone back and forth about N-S-E-W, but considering that directions weren’t Estee’s strongest points, I’ve been thinking about the rock face being the “the key” and (equally important, I think) is in what context did Estee write about it.

On page 31, she’s writing about the challenge of applying Waltz’s directions to the topography of the Superstitions, then she writes: “According to the Dutchman…… you will see a rock formation in the shape of a face, high on a ridge. This is the key. Directly across from this stone face is the entrance to the mine.” Then she goes back into how to interpret the instructions.

I find it intriguing that Estee prefaces those comments with “According to the Dutchman”. Did Jacob himself mention that the rock face is the key? We will never know, but the thought is certainly provoking. If Jacob didn’t mention that the rock face was the key, then I have to wonder what would cause someone else (Estee?) to make that assumption. Again, we will never know but it is an interesting point to ponder. Anyway……

The face is apparently observable enough that you shouldn’t be looking for ‘elephants in the clouds’ but at the same time you must be careful in your observation (carefully observing). I would understand her instructions to mean that the face is noticeable, but not blatantly obvious. This rock face is “high on a ridge”. I assume therefore that the ridge itself is an obvious feature on the canyon wall….. Boy howdy, that sure narrows it down - doesn’t it?

Considering that someone closer to the source than myself says that the rock-face ‘the key’ – I’m asking does anybody here know of other (hopefully credible) references to the rock face?

Thanks,
Ashton

Ashton,

I believe there are a few additional references to the "Face". Whether they are "credible" or not, is obviously debatable. Even Conasters reference could be debated, in my opinion.

If you would like to discuss it privately, send me an email and I will explain what i'm talking about. I'm not giving this away publically, but you know i don't mind sharing with a few of you who regularly participate.

Thanks again,
Travis

All,

"The Sterling legend" page 50 -> From the Phoenix Gazette 1895 (reading Conatser, I can’t tell if this version came from McKee or Bricknell)

Conatser reads as follows:

"During his declining years a woman administered to the tottering Jacob as did Ruth in days of yore. To her he left his property, consisting of a town lot. He also divulged to her the secret of the hidden gold mine.

"In a gulch in the Superstition Mountains, the location of which is described by certain landmarks, there is a two room house in the mouth of a cave on the side of the slope near the gulch. Just across the gulch, about 200 yards, opposite this house in the cave, is a tunnel, well covered and concealed in the bushes. Here is the mine, the richest mine in the world, according to Dutch Jacob. Some distance above the tunnel on the side of the mountain, is a shaft or incline that is so steep that one cannot climb down. This, too, is carefully covered. The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich gold ledge, where it can be picked off in flakes of almost pure gold.”

End of Conatser.

I could write a dissertation on the inconsistencies of the above paragraph. But I spare you, instead just a couple comments:

“opposite this house in the cave, is a tunnel (OK this is the FIRST TUNNEL) well covered and concealed in the bushes. Here is the mine (this tunnel IS the mine) the richest mine in the world……… Some distance above the tunnel (i.e. above the FIRST tunnel\mine) on the side of the mountain, is a (another) shaft or incline that is so steep that one cannot climb down. This, too, is carefully covered. The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich gold ledge, where it can be picked off in flakes of almost pure gold.”

Comment - It appears that there are TWO LDM’s, one above the other. I know that some of you consider some of Conatser’s sources to be of dubious origin (I understand). However, this description is particularly intriguing and it could explain some of the inconsistencies regarding the immediate surrounding area as well as the discrepancies in the description of the mine itself (is it a shaft or an audit?). Hmmmmm.


Best,
Ashton

so Ashton if a pesron found the first tunnel
(and lots of gold)
do you think one could climp UP
the incline shaft?
or maybe the shaft is to let in light?
Thanks
roc

Hi Roc,

Well, reading Conatser there are two distinct mines and both of them lead to gold. The tunnel supposedly goes down on the 'richest mine in the world' - but some distance above this tunnel is a shaft that goes down on a 'rich gold ledge'. Two different mines with two different descriptions of the ore.

Apparently, you can climb up to the upper shaft - otherwise how would Waltz have known that it went down on a rich ledge of almost pure gold?

The interesting thing here is that IF there are two mines (a tunnel and a shaft) that would explain the differences in the stories - viz:

The tunnel is NOT to steep that one can walk down it
The tunnel IS too steep and one can NOT walk down it

The gold came out of a pit
The gold is in a tunnel

If the story in Conatser is correct, we could be looking at two sets of clues that have become intermingled over time.

Best,
Ashton

Is the tunnel & the shaft connected?
Re-reading it I believe they are 2 separate digs
But that makes no sense.
How do you dig a shaft that you can't climb down?
My idea was that the shaft was tunneled uP from the tunnel.

But even more confusing is who is the Ruth of yore?

roc