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 Post subject: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:39 am 
It has been speculated that Jacob Waltz may have discovered the massacre grounds early on, and picked up his rich ore from that location. He could have spent some time and moved the ore back into the mountains and cached it there. That might be why he supposedly said if you find the cache you will find the mine. They were the same thing.

Because of the source, I no longer trust the accepted location of that massacre. Is there some other historical source for that location?

If it's a true story, a metal detector in the ravines and canyons as you move east back towards West Boulder might be productive. Has anyone ever made that kind of a search?

Here are some pictures that point toward some kind of mining activity in the area of the massacre grounds:


Image
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The above pictures are courtesy of Dave Leach.

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Seems like an interesting theory.

Joe Ribaudo


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:57 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 8
I have wondered about the same - but - then he wouldn't call it a 'mine', would he? He would have said he had caches ... (Well, he did say caches, but he also referred to a 'mine')
But like everything else in this convoluted story, where nothing seems to be etched in stone - just _who_ does one believe in???

Per


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:54 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
Posts: 586
Joe:

As I understand it,the "Massacre Grounds" is thought to be the location where a running battle between a large group of Mexican miners and a larger force of Vavapai and Apaches concluded.
A number of skirmishes may have occurred at other locations along the route used by the retreating miners,where men or mules may have fallen.Hence the stories of ore in rotting leather satchels or in small piles upon the ground which come from several sources.
Evidence as to the Massacre grounds site also comes from several independent sources as well, I believe,which may give this portion of Sups history better credibility.

If you yourself have a belief in the massacre as a factual event,where would you place the location?
Does the concept of a protracted running battle,with ore and artifacts being lost or cached along the way, make sense to you?

Regards:Wayne


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:58 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Dutch's Ditch, AZ
Hi Guys

I often wondered about arrowheads in this area.
Wouldn't there be a quite a few about
if this massacre happpened?
Correct me if I'm wrong
but it seems like this would be a prime spot
and proof a massacre

Thanks
Ed


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:44 pm
Posts: 189
Location: Jamestown ND
I agree ed, were I live you find lots of indian stuff almost everyday, from arrowheads, hammerheads ,hachets, hide skinners even found the stone part of a peacepipe, but it seams the superstitions contain very little of this type of stuff, to even back up it was the home of any tribe or a place of a great massacre.


Babymick1


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
Posts: 586
The "Massacre Grounds" area is covered,for the most part,with a blanket of brush and grass,loose rock and boulders.
Where the ground is bare,you will find yourself trying to find small pointed stones mixed among patches of sharp fragments of volcanic ash and the pebbles once embedded within the ash.
It's not likely that more than a few hundred arrows were used during the battle,and those spread over a wide area.Many found along the trails by hikers over the years were likely pocketed as well.
There are places in the Sups which have much more in the way of pottery shards,arrow heads and spear points...etc,evident.Those were places where the early inhabitants made their homes.
Keep in mind as well,that the victorious in any battle,given time to do so, usually remove anything of further use from such sites.

Regards:SH


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:58 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Dutch's Ditch, AZ
Certainly some valid points are being made
When was the massacre story first told/printed?
Was it common knowledge during Jim Barks day?


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:06 pm 
John D. Mitchell nibbles around the edges of the massacre story in his 1933 book, "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest" and again in his 1953 updated version. The first, that I know of, to tell the story (basically) as we know it today was Barry Storm in his 1939 publication of "Trail of the Lost Dutchman".

If anyone knows of another earlier source for the story, I'm sure we would all love to see it. The "Edwards Notes" are questionable, to be kind. Dr. Glover expressed some troubling aspects with the story he received.

Joe Ribaudo


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:58 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Dutch's Ditch, AZ
Thanks Joe !

Why I was asking
is that Jim Bark was real big with relic hunting.
At least there are newspaper accounts of him
finding an olla full of Montezuma arrow heads in the Supers.
As much of Dutch Hunters as he was, and his proclivity
for recovering relics; if the massacre story was well known in his day,
he must of canvassed that area for verification of it.

Ever hear of any tales of earlier Dutch Hunters finding evidence?

Not that it matters.
Gold could be lying about with out a massacre,
I suppose…..


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 Post subject: Re: THE MASSACRE GROUNDS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:51 pm 
Ed,

Almost every Dutch Hunter I know has stumbled on Indian relics in the Superstitions.
Don't know that I would call them "relic hunters".

Take care,

Joe


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