It was nice to finally put some faces to names and an Honor to meet so many good people. Babymick, I think we may have spoken.

Eric

Maybe this should go under Sims Ely’s Book thread, but since I believe this may be of interest to those who made the rendezvous this year, I’m posting it here:

"What is not commonly known is that Ely's book, the lost Dutchman mine, was written by two people, Sims Ely and his editor, John Wiley of William Morrow & Co. who published the book. Ely's natural style coupled with Wiley's polishing and rewrites have made Ely's the lost Dutchman mine the classic of Dutchman lore." - Glover; The Golden Dream, page 30

Note to self -> Never, ever skim your reading material, no matter how insignificant it may appear to be at the time...... (sigh).

Ashton

Yeah Ashton
If I spent my time looking for the dutchman's mine. I,d not be trusting a dutchman's writting flair from those kind of books. I'd go with just the first five clues or so before all the others were added by writters' to sell there stories. Like the big one where there were alot of army trails that ran though the super's, there was just one. The rest was added to make someone's story line up so they could claim they found it. So if your area don't match up where you can see the army trail your not in the right area. Yeah the needle would have to appear to the south and four peaks looks as one to a old man who's eye's most likely not to sharp and a north treading canyon not a true north canyon I'm sure Waltz would have know that as a fact, being a man who spent alot of he's life in travel.

See I've only looked to solve the peralta maps and I,ll say that I've found a mine that fits the bill. To my old eye,s four peaks looks as one and to the south I can see the needle if I climb up, and I can see the cars on the army trail. Now there,s no barn or windmill but there are some old footings where they might have been and yes there seems to be a peak with a hole in it, But thier is no hole in it, just appears to look like it does cause its two peaks that appear to be one.

So less, would serve to be more when trying to solve the Dutchman's web!

The mine I found hardly has enough gold to make twenty men millioniares, But that one could be real close, who knows

Take Care

Babymick1

Hi Mick,

I believe it’s entirely possible that the four peaks Waltz was referring to were not necessarily “The Four Peaks” north of the Salt River. Of course, that would open up a lot of area and it might explain why Waltz planned on taking Julia and Reiney into the mountains from the south.

I got the chance to ask some of the folks at the ‘upper camp’ what they thought about Mary Bagwell’s interview of Herman Petrasch and the general consensus was that it was an accurate reporting of what Herman said. IF Herman was correct, that means the Dutchman candle-box ore would have come out of a creek embankment, from the mine Waltz dubbed “the placer” (which in itself is quite revealing) and not up on a hillside.

But that and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.......

Best,

Ashton

Hi Ashton

If thats true! you,ll have to eliminate other clues. My mine is above a old spainish mine walled up. ect. So if the creek bed clues are real then none of waltz's clues are.

Babymick1

Hi BabyMic,

>> if the creek bed clues are real then none of waltz's clues are.

Mary Bagwell’s report on Herman is a real curve ball in the equation. According to Herman (hope this isn’t too far off topic) there are TWO mines – which is something I have suspected for some time. And the two mines are separated by (I’m guessing) about 2 miles.

“The Placer” mine is where the candle-box ore came from and “The Quartz” is a hardrock mine that (depending on who you listen to) Waltz never actually mined. This gets compounded when you consider the presentation Dr. Glover made at the rendezvous regarding the authorship of Sim’s book………. just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water…..

In any case – my explorations are on hold until Dr. Glover’s new book comes out. I’m beginning to suspect that Dick Holmes was at his onyx mine when Waltz passed away. But I shall reserve judgment until I read his new book.


Best,
Ashton

Hi Ashton,

We met in the upper camp at the October Rendezvous and had the opportunity to talk for a few minutes. Years before Dr. Glover got the idea to look into who actually wrote Sims Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, he was told that Mr. Ely was not the books author and many of the notes used for that book were not Ely's or Jim Bark's for that matter. Mr. Glover was taken to the Greenwood cemetery in Phoenix and shown the grave of Jim Bark's father, Frederick Bark, buried in the Criswell family plot along with the entire Criswell family. Frederick Bark and Frank Criswell's father were lifelong friends and business partners. Frank Criswell was Jim Bark's longtime partner in both business and leisure. A much closer relationship than what Bark experienced with Sims Ely.

It was explained to Dr. Glover, in detail, how Jim Bark's father and the father of Frank Criswell brought the two families to Arizona and set up both Jim Bark and Frank Criswell in business and gave them their starts. A vastly different story than appeared in the Sims Ely book, the Northcutt Ely speach, or is commonly believed.

Now Dr. Glover has looked into the possibility that Dick Holmes was at the Onyx mine on the evening-morning of Waltz's death. This is due to a newspaper clip stating (Holmes) had come into Phoenix from the Onyx mine the night after Waltz's death. However the matter of exactly who that newspaper clip was referring to is in considerable doubt.

Dick Holmes (Brownie Holmes father) was Richard J. Holmes. His fathers name was Richard J. Holmes and his grandfather's name was Richard J. Holmes.

Dick Holmes was often confused with his father in business matters, in newspapers , in articles and on the street in casual conversation. He was known throughout the territory as Dick Holmes, Richard J. Holmes, Richard J. Holmes Jr. and also as Richard Holmes III.

A well known photo of Dick Holmes shows him at the supposed Onyx mine with a man identified as J.B. Woodson. This photo has appeared in at least one well known Dutchman book. However the photo was not taken at the Onyx mine and the man with Dick Holmes is Richard Nale, not J.B. Woodson. Woodson was a much older man and a business partner of the senior Richard J. Holmes. Richard Nale was the best friend of Dick Holmes and was the best man at Dick Holmes wedding.

This confusion has caused Dr. Glover and others to erroneously conclude their present opinions. Just as they previously, erroneously concluded their opinions about who wrote Sims Ely's book and the circumstances surrounding Jim Bark and Frank Criswell's partnership and beginnings in the Arizona Territory. The explanation that the person the newspaper article is referring to is the senior Holmes, and not Dick Holmes, is easily proven, in part by the original Onyx mine claim papers and also by other newspaper articles that both preceeded and followed the article in question.

If you are interested in learning the rest of the story of Dick Holmes and his involvement with his father and the Onyx mine, I would be happy to share with you what is known so you can look at both sides and decide the issue for yourself. You can contact me at aurumla@yahoo.com if you have an interest.

Aurum

Hi Aurum,

Thanks! That’s some interesting info that I need to put ‘into the mix’ and see where it leads. It seems like every time I think I have one of the angles figured out, then something new pops up and I have to reevaluate my position. Sometimes I have so step back just due to information overload.

Best,
Ashton

Hello Ashton, how are you doing? May I ask what you film and what are you are searching for.I enjoyed reading some of your discussions.