Babymick1,

Thinking outside the box works just fine, until you make that trip to the top of the ridge and see the beginning of the Stone Map trail.
Once you do that, you're in that box until the rest of the map no longer lines up with the Stone Maps.

Trying to say what they would have done a few hundred years ago or should have done, by your logic and reasoning, is an exercise in
futility.

If you make it to the Rendezvous, I will draw you a picture. Better yet, I will let you draw it.

Take care,

Joe

Joe

Well as long as you got color crayans, I'll do the drawing on this one

Take care Babymick1

Babymick1,

OK......fine! I guess I will just have to do the drawing. Actually, I never really believed it would be any different.

Take care,

Joe

Gentlemen,

There have been ‘period specific’ mining tools found in numerous locations all over the Superstitions and not just in the saddle above Willow Springs. Just because mining tools were found somewhere in the Superstitions does not mean they belonged to Jacob Waltz. If one does find mining tools in any particular location, it’s pretty much a given that it’s going to be close to a mine. But that doesn’t mean the mine is the LDM.

I see some serious issues with Hog Canyon being ‘this is the place’. If you go in via Hog Canyon then:
How are you going to see Weaver’s Needle to the South?
How are you going to find a ridge in that area where the Four Peaks line up? Sorry guys, it ain’t gonna happen.
Anybody found a two room cave in that area?
My point is that whether you follow Sims\Bark or whether you follow Holmes, Hog Canyon doesn’t line up with either of them.

IF Waltz told Julia and Reiney to go up via Hog Canyon and that’s where they went, then WHY didn’t they see ANY of the landmarks that Waltz told them about? I’ve already stated that I seriously doubt Waltz was lying to Julia because he was planning on escorting them to the mine. Therefore IF Waltz was lying then he would look like a big dope once they got into the hills. I really don’t see a decent rebuttal to that argument and until I do, I’m sticking with “Waltz was telling the truth”.

It only makes sense that whatever landmarks Waltz told them to look for; they would have been the most visible, most prominent landmarks in the area. The fact that Reiney was unable to tell Bark even ONE single landmark (!) they had located - tells me that Julia and Reiney were simply looking in the wrong place. Someone PLEASE give me a better, more logical explanation. I’m not being snooty about this; I honestly want to hear one. That’s the whole point of these forums.

The only way Hog Canyon makes any sense is because Julia and Reiney were coming from Phoenix and Hog Canyon was the first gorge they came to. Additionally, there was (supposedly) a ranch house in Hog Canyon at that time. In other words (back to square one) Julia and Reiney were completely lost from the get-go.

Best,
Ashton

Ashton,

IMHO, you have mixed a little fairly solid information, with a mass of disinformation into your post. The best evidence for the location of the LDM, I believe, still comes
from the sources that were closest to Waltz. Julia and Rhiney. The only people who
could have told their story were Bark, and by extension, Ely.

Julia and Rhiney did not get that far up Hog Canyon.

I would suggest you go back and reread Bark and Ely.

Good luck,

Joe

Hello Joe,

You almost make it sound as if I am deliberately responsible for or possibly even the source of this ‘mass of disinformation’.

My POINT is that I don’t care how far Reiney and Julia made it (or didn’t make it) up Hog Canyon. You show me the ridge from the Hog Canyon area, en route to the saddle above Willow Springs, where the Four Peaks line up as one - and I will buy you a cherry pie.
Now, if the Four Peaks lining up from the top of the ridge is ‘disinformation’ then it came from Holmes, not me.

I was illustrating that no matter who you follow - be it; Diaz, Sinbad, Gassler, Weiser, Holmes, Ely, Peck, Celeste Jones, BB or whoever, the bulk of their ‘clues’ are simply not in, or near the saddle above Willow Springs. That’s one more reason why I don’t think Julia and Reiney intentionally went up Hog Canyon - they were just plain lost.

Alternatively, one could interpret my observation that Julia and Reiney were devoid of locating even a single landmark to mean that wherever it was that they went searching – they were consistently in the wrong location. That eliminates a lot of area, doesn’t it?

I’ve read Bark and I’ve read Ely and I stand by my position that neither Julia nor Reiney (those who were closest to Waltz) were able to show Bark, Ely, Bricknell, the town marshal or anybody else ONE SINGLE landmark that Waltz told them to look for. Now, we may or may not know what each and every one of those landmarks were, but my POINT is that Reiney was NOT able to claim; “Hey Mr. Bark, I found those Three Peaks with the frying pan and the four stones and it’s just above ________ (fill in the blank) canyon.”

Even Weiser drew three peaks due west of the mine on his map. Now that’s quite a statement considering that I don’t believe there ever was a Weiser. My point being, the disinformation was not my origination, it’s spread throughout a multitude of sources - including Barks Notes and the Holmes Manuscript. Of course, that does NOT mean that everything in Bark and Holmes is disinformation – just enough to be a real nuisance.

Let’s look at Bark’s Notes: Reiney was hoping that Jim Bark would find the mine and ‘do what was right’ by giving Reiney a share of the goodies should Bark ever find the mine. Therefore, Reiney had absolutely NO REASON to lie to Bark and absolutely NO reason to hold anything back from Bark.
My POINT is, if Waltz told Julia and Reiney that the best way to access the mine was to go up Hog Canyon -=and=- if it was in Reiney’s best interest for Bark to locate the mine…… Then how come Reiney never told Jim Bark he should start in Hog Canyon?

Cheers,
Ashton

Ashton,

[You almost make it sound as if I am deliberately responsible for or possibly even the source of this ‘mass of disinformation’.]

"almost" is a pretty wide loop. Don't believe you are the source for any of the things
you wrote, except for your opinions.

If that's the way you read what Bark and Ely wrote, I'm fine with your opinion.

Take care,

Joe

All this "blah blah blah".... But no argument FOR Hog Canyon... Hmmmm... Kind of makes you wonder if the "Old Guard" is suddenly questioning their own beliefs and all they can do is make fun of the new guys....

After all, the "norm" has worked for the last 120+ years, let's just keep doing the same thing......

Just a bunch of "Hot Air" from the same old people. At least Jim Hatt knew when to give some "Credit" to a "newbie" when it was due.... I for one hope you keep searching in the same old areas.... At least there won't be anyone close to the real spot....

Thanks
TRAVIS CROW

Ashton

And i just want to say, good questions you posed. Why isn't the Needle to the south? That spot is pure BS. One day it's "Hog Canyon", the next day it's the "Pit Mine".... Which is what, about 10 miles east of EVERYTHING..??... What a joke... Of course there are minerals in the Superstition Mountains... Anyone that says otherwise is a friggin moron....

Thanks
TRAVIS CROW

Travis,

Since you did not address your post to anyone, and I am the only one here with an opposing point of view, I will assume you meant it for me.

Do you consider my asking questions about statements being made in posts to be
"make fun of the new guys...."? I believe I have always treated Ashton, and yourself, with respect.

I am not searching in ANY area, so your hope that I continue in that kind of
search, seems foolish and without logic. I hope your own search is based on
facts, rather than what you imagine to be the truth.

"At least there won't be anyone close to the real spot...."

Until you come up with something other than the "hot air" just quoted, your theories will be no better than mine, with considerably less evidence to back
up your conclusions.

I have provided the evidence for the theories about the pit mine, as well as the
evidence for Hog Canyon or Hieroglyphic Canyon being the "trail" which would lead to the LDM and the Stone Map trail. What evidence have you provided?

You seem to feel that "blah blah blah" and your own brand of "hot air" is enough
to establish your expertise in this conversation. That will work fine for some folks,
but others will, likely, find it a little weak.

At this point in time your theories, as well as Ashton's, are no better or worse than anyone else's, including mine. On the other hand, I have shown
the evidence that mine are based on.

Good luck,

Joe