"Herman (Petrasch) and I were partners, in a way, for we made a number of trips into the Superstitions together. Camping with him, I found him congenial and intelligent, absolutely truthful and honorable." - Sims Ely [pg. 116]

I found that comment insightful as a character witness from someone who knew Herman personally. This makes me re-think everything I thought I knew about the LDM.

Best,
Ashton

Hi Homar,

Clay himself says that the story he tells is not his, he is merely repeating what others have said. So I don’t know if the version Clay tells is historically accurate or not….. in fact, I wonder of anything I’ve read about the LDM is historically accurate.

Conatser may soon be vindicated (or discredited) if Dr. Glover has acquired the “real” Barks Notes from the Ely family, that is. I wouldn’t miss this year’s rendezvous for anything. BTW – are you going to be there? If so, please look me up. I won’t be able to make it until Saturday.

>> “There are enough clues to find it without any map.” The only clues I’ve found that I would deem ‘absolutely credible’ are the old Spanish markers I have seen in the hills. Now – if only I could decipher them…….

Best,
Ashton

While I would like to believe that many of the markings in the Superstitions were made by spanish explorers or miners, I personally believe it's a crapshoot as to which few may be authentic.

In just the last couple years alone I've read and heard too many stories about people fabricating markings for reasons ranging from boredom to trying to draw people away from an area they wanted to explore. I also personally believe with the number of people who have actively searched the Superstitions, there's a very good chance many of the true markings have been altered and or destroyed as they were found by people who felt they knew the area well enough and wanted to keep others from finding the same markers.

The more I follow the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine, the more I realize that "absolutely credible" facts are in the eyes of the beholder, and when you take the emotion out of it and just sit back and use reason, most of the facts to the legend seem to always fall just out of reach.

All too true - and a rather sad commentary on some of the DH’ing community. But destroying monuments, altering evidence and misleading ‘clues’ goes back to the beginning of the legend. I’m not so sure that Waltz himself was entirely truthful about the whole affair.

I find Sims character witness of Herman to be interesting. If Herman is telling the truth – even close to the truth, then none of the ‘clues’ or the markers even matter. If there ever was a 20” ledge of gold exposed by erosion (as Herman claimed) even if it’s been covered for 100 years, then it’s simply stream-shooting 101 and geo-chemical sampling – just like any place else.

But if Herman is telling the truth, then why the big story from Helena and Reiney to Sims? I can reconcile Holmes’ version (the mine) to Reiney’s version (the cache) but Herman’s version is a curve ball if there ever was one.

I dunno – just once, I’d like to read the same version of the story from two different people.

Best,
Ashton

Ashton,

Pulling this from the original post of this entire string:

“The mine, which Walzer called the ‘Placer’ was discovered in 1869. On one of their trips, he and Weiser had camped near a good spring not far from the base of what is now called Weaver’s Needle, a sharp isolated peak in this range of mountains. From their camp they could walk to the Placer and to the ‘Quartz’, a second mine about a mile farther."

There is a possible connection with an early searcher, just not one you are looking for. The Dutchman supposedly claimed the mine would make millionaires of twenty men. How could he know that... when the vein in any mine could pinch out another foot down? Barry Storm came up with the solution to that, he claimed the vein ran all the way from the mountain top to where it dropped out in the valley. What if you read Herman's description to be two ends of the same vein running a mile long... then judging it could make twenty millionaires, even in the Dutchman's day, would not be such a stretch.

Shelby

Hi Shelby,

That’s a good point and it makes sense. Personally, I don’t know if Waltz actually said “there was enough gold to make 20 men millionaires” or if that was just a “Brownie-ism” i.e. something whoever wrote the Holmes Manuscript added in for embellishment.

Best,
Ashton

I listened to Clay Worst's Dutchman talk early this year and he certainly steers you toward the Holmes version!

I also met Ron Feldman, seems like a good guy. I'm still reading Crooked Mountain and I read his son's book. The Cox story is certainly front and center and seems similar to Herman's story. Maybe Herman came to believe the Cox story over time when the original directions didn't pan out?

At the end of the day it seems like every searcher started near Weaver's needle and then kept getting farther and farther away - to places where there was obvious mineralization. Personally I'm still wondering about those old Spanish diggings near William's camp!

Shelby

Hello armchair,I never read them books or was able to find listen to the lecture.
After his lecture did he ever leave a way to contact him? I'd sure like to contact him.

I just finished reading all six pages of this thread and would like to ask if anyone recorded Dr. Glover's talk on Saturday night at the rendevous? Could it be transcribed and posted?
Also, about the Herman Petrasch article-it really opens up a can of worms, doesn't it? Suddenly we learn about a gold discovery by Waltz that hadn't been heard of up until then. If Ashton's theory, which is a good one, is true, that Waltz was trying to describe the "quartz" mine to Dick Holmes, then why did he describe the same mine to J and R. as told by Sims Ely? Or were J. and R. lying to Ely? And if they were, why? I mean, Waltz describes one mine to them, a mine he supposedly never worked , instead working the "placer" mine in the creek? What would be the point of that? It's really hard to logically work your way through this quagmire!
Does anyone think J. and R. might have told Ely about both locations, but he decided only to write about the "Quartz"? I mean, if Herman got this info from Reiney, why wasn't Ely also privy to it?
I guess the material Dr. Glover got from Ely's family might clear some of these questions up.
Bob Ward

I would try to contact Clay worst through the Superstition Mining Museum. They set up his lecture and he said he lives near there.

Shelby