Damage to Clues or Markers

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thehunter
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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by thehunter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:39 pm

Hello rex western you may be right for a hundred years or so but for three hundred +years you really need markers that will last.another problem is anyone can mark a cactus after a year who would know the age.I have now over 25 years searching markings. So its the good for newbees to know our information.
. I was just thinking REX, the peralta horse I submitted in the other net must have taken a year to chip the stone on the ledge.
GOOD LUCK
TOM

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by action14 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:20 pm

spirit wrote:Rex Western,

Since you do not address me by name I take the liberty you were speaking to me so I will answer and trust I will not speak out of place.

I can only speak for what I know and what is customary to my clan and the things I have been taught. I cannot speak for others, other tribes and their ways. This is what I know. The use of a white and blue feather together by some Apache is significant. The feathers themselves, their specific colors and being together all are significant. More common however, is the use of a blue and white stone but the meaning is the same.

You must first understand some basic Apache beliefs. To the Apache there are four sacred colors, black signifies the East, yellow signifies the West, white the North and blue the South. Also, and of great importance is Yolkai-Nalin, the most esteemed and feared Apache deity. Also know to the Apache as white shell girl, she alone controls birth and death and her power and will is second only to yosen (the Apache God). Yolkai-Nalin is always signified by the color white.

Duklishi-Skhin, born in the blue clouds ia a much revered Apache deity who aided Yosen in the creation of people, animals and plants. He is also known as turquoise boy to the Apache and he is always signified with the color blue.

When an Apache prays to Yolkai-Nalin and Duklishi-Skhin, or observes one of the ceremonies connected with them, a blue and white stone, or feathers, or beads, or shells are used with the ceremony, prayer and offerings. Sacred pollen of the tule or pinion is also always used in these ceremonies and prayers. The feathers, stones, beads or shells of the specific blue and white colors signify respect, reverence, purity of your words and heart and serve as a medium between yourself and the deities.

Using these items, which are considered sacred, prayers are said to the deities, speaking to them and sometimes asking for wisdom and guidance or for goodness and mercy. These ceremonies and prayers are very private matters of individuals or one or two other persons, sometimes they are used in band or clan ceremonies involving mountain spirits (gan). The prayer ceremony can be held at any time and any place but when done at a place of chidin bi-yi (spirit power) the significance is greatly heightened.

With me always I carry sacred pollen and a blue and white stone.

spirit
what is the importance of the blue and or white stone when used with the stone rattlesnakes at the entrance of the sacred Apache cave? thx

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by spirit » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:51 am

ya-a-teh action14,

A blue and white stone, as well as blue and white feathers and shells are used in many prayers and ceremonies both tribal and private. When you make the statement, " at the entrance of the sacred Apache cave", that is a difficult statement to understand. There is no one single sacred cave to the Apache people. Many caves, mountains, rivers and places are considered sacred. The Apache were many bands and hundreds of seperate clans, each with their own knowledge of sacred places which were many times specific only to themselves. Many of these sacred places were sacred only to specific individuals and their immediate family. One would have to know which cave you were reffering to, to speak about it.

I can only speak for myself and my clan. I am not aware of the use of stone rattlesnakes at the entrance to a cave. That is not the way of my people. I am Tiis-Ebah Apache (Pinal Apache). Other bands or clans or individuals may use this in their prayer or ceremony. The rattlesnake is much shunned by most Apache, it is not a thing that would be used in a benevolent way. More likely to be used by a chidn-biyi spirit or bruja-a, a witch or sorcerer for evil purposes. Again, I cannot speak for it's use as it is not my way.

ka-dish-day

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by gollum » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:33 am

Hello Spirit,

I know I am resurrecting an old thread, but possibly you may get email updates from here.

I believe Rex Western was talking about a story associated with a cave story that may be meshed from a few different stories or maybe a few stories that sprang from one (I can't be certain).

Story 1: The story goes that the cave where the NDeh emerged from the underworld after the flood is somewhere in the Superstition Mountains.

Story 2: This story says that the Black Robes (Jesuits), hid a large treasure in the Superstition Mountains (about 1765-1767). They tasked (depending on which version of the story you read) either the Pima or NDeh with guarding it (which they still do to this day).

Story 3: This story says that there is a large cave in the Superstition Mountains. It is full of gold, but this cave belongs to Yusen. Yusen placed a large rattlesnake to guard the cave. On either side of the cave entrance are two bowls. You have to have the correct Blue/White Stones to place in the bowls, and also know the proper prayers. If done correctly, the rattlesnake will turn to stone, and you can enter the cave.

I am pretty sure the last story is what Rex was referring to.

Mike

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:24 am

Probably over 40-years ago, my brother and I found two stone monuments on top of the ridge that separates East and West Boulder Canyons. They were around six foot tall and approximately 18" square. The first one had an obvious site hole at eye level looking east at a small hill. Walking around the hill, we found an identical monument, except no site hole.

In recent years, I have flown over that ridge by helicopter and hiked it a couple of times. The monuments could not be found. I believe someone destroyed them, and did a very good job of distributing the rocks that were used to build them.

Image
Hiking the ridge.

Image
Flying the ridge.

If you look closely, you may be able to see a trail just above the center of the picture.

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Carrol » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:01 pm

thehunter wrote:Hello rex western you may be right for a hundred years or so but for three hundred +years you really need markers that will last.another problem is anyone can mark a cactus after a year who would know the age.I have now over 25 years searching markings. So its the good for newbees to know our information.
. I was just thinking REX, the peralta horse I submitted in the other net must have taken a year to chip the stone on the ledge.
GOOD LUCK
TOM
problem is anyone can mark a cactus after a year who would know the age.
It's easily noticeable by the age layers in the cacti carving.

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Uley Bauer » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:42 am

Is there an unwritten code for searchers to follow when trekking over the backcountry sites? I'm seeing & have seen "The Law of the West" where anything is OK so long as no one is looking! What is the thinking today, 2017?

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Marius » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:51 am

gollum wrote:Hello Spirit,

I know I am resurrecting an old thread, but possibly you may get email updates from here.

I believe Rex Western was talking about a story associated with a cave story that may be meshed from a few different stories or maybe a few stories that sprang from one (I can't be certain).

Story 1: The story goes that the cave where the NDeh emerged from the underworld after the flood is somewhere in the Superstition Mountains.

Story 2: This story says that the Black Robes (Jesuits), hid a large treasure in the Superstition Mountains (about 1765-1767). They tasked (depending on which version of the story you read) either the Pima or NDeh with guarding it (which they still do to this day).

Story 3: This story says that there is a large cave in the Superstition Mountains. It is full of gold, but this cave belongs to Yusen. Yusen placed a large rattlesnake to guard the cave. On either side of the cave entrance are two bowls. You have to have the correct Blue/White Stones to place in the bowls, and also know the proper prayers. If done correctly, the rattlesnake will turn to stone, and you can enter the cave.

I am pretty sure the last story is what Rex was referring to.

Mike
Mike

I believe the truth is a mix between the story #2 and story #3 , or better , starts with the story #2 and continue with the story #3 . I would take the story #3 as a prophecy which " saw " the Native elders/hataali and not literally word by word .

The blue and white feathers or stones could be considered as a metaphor for blue and white layers of a specific country flag , and to turn a snake in stone , I believe is the same to make the snake to disappears using some magic words .
And IMO , the prophecy says : " The cave with gold, can find and possess , only the Greek man who knows the Snake magic words " .

Marius

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Marius » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:50 am

Hi Spirit

Have you heard about the Pima legend about the white horse rock in the Superstitions ?
I believe the sacred cave with the treasure , that was debated above , is very close to that horse rock .

Marius

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Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:01 am

Marius wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:50 am
Hi Spirit

Have you heard about the Pima legend about the white horse rock in the Superstitions ?
I believe the sacred cave with the treasure , that was debated above , is very close to that horse rock .

Marius
Hi Marius,

The obvious question that comes to mind is, what makes you "believe" the cave and the horse rock are related (close)

Thanks,

Joe

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