Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

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StevenTrost
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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by StevenTrost » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:22 am

PBFred

I have no proof the two incidents of stone tablets are connected or even if they could be connected. But if they aren't, I have to agree, they sure are a curious and intriguing set of coincidences.

The link to the articles were first seen from copies a man named Al Reser showed me. He later said the article came from the collection of Greg Davis of Tempe. One was a clipping from the Phoenix Gazette newspaper dated 1880-1881 time period and the other a mid1930's story from a Saturday or Sunday suppliment to the Az. Republican.

Steven Trost
Last edited by StevenTrost on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:22 am

Steven:
What seems clear to me, based on what I have found since beginning my own work with the Stone Maps, is that additional maps, or at least a list of instructions, would have been required in order to locate the area within the mountains to which the stones which we do have are relevant.
If Ramon Grijalva did have a number of stone maps, perhaps obtained from the Mission San Antonio Paduano del Oquitoa....http://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/cdm/singl ... 6....these may have been what would have been needed. Wish we had them now, but it would partly explain why so many have failed in their attempts to understand the stones.

PBFred:
Your suggestion that Grijalva may have shown his stones to Waltz may have some merit.
Walz by then, had probably become very familiar with the mountains, so it is possible that he may have been able to use what Grijalva had to find his mine or a cache of gold ore. I do suspect the LDM to be somewhere just outside the area delineated by the Stone Maps.

IMHO...Waltz or anyone else however, would have needed the stones which we have in order to know what, specifically, to look for, after reaching that area of the mountains.

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by StevenTrost » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:52 pm

Hello somehiker,

The small article about Ramon Grijalva and the stone tablets didn't say how many stones he brought back to Phoenix but it was at least 2 because the article read, "stones", that could mean 2 or possibly more. It said he returned from Altar Sonora with them but that does not necessarily mean they came from Altar or that is where he obtained them. He was merely visiting in Altar, his hometown. For all we know, someone could have brought the stones to Altar from anywhere. The article didn't say Grijalva found the stones himself so it could have been someone else who had them and Grijalva somehow aquired them and brought them to Phoenix. So many questions unanswered.

I have to agree with you, I don't think the two stone maps we have today are the complete set of instructions. There seems to be something missing.

I forgot to mention in my first post, in addition to Ramon Grijalva living for a time on the south half of Waltz's property, a Peralta also was listed in census and tax records as living on that same south half of Waltz's property also and in the same time period.

Steven Trost
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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:44 pm

Steven:
Seems you made a faux pas with the signature of your last post.

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by TradClimber » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:58 pm

:oops:

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:19 am

Steven:
I wonder if it's possible that Grijalva and/or Peralta sought Waltz out after learning of his gold find ?
Or whether their acquaintance was merely by chance, since both names are also associated with mining in the area.
http://www.mindat.org/loc-143260.html
This too: http://www.my-familyhistory.com/16422/22301.html

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:28 pm

A curious and mysterious article appeared in the Phoenix Gazette newspaper in 1880-1881. It was a short article
StevenTrost wrote:PBFred, coazon de oro and somehiker, telling about a well known local Phoenix man, Ramon Grijalva, who had recently returned to Phoenix from a trip to his native hometown of Altar, Mexico with some curious stone tablets with cryptic etchings on them assumed to be some sort of map or directions. I saw this particular news article from the collection of Mr. Greg Davis of Tempe.

It was always believed by Phoenix residents the stone tablets Grijalva brought to Phoenix with him were somehow connected to the Peralta's. Why this is I can't explain, possibly because of the Reavis land fraud involving the Peralta's of that same time period, or possibly because of something Ramon Grijalva may have said concerning the tablets.

A second article appeared in the 1930's in which another Grijalva, Garcia Higenio Grijalva, also attributed the stone tablets to the Peralta's. This Grijalva was approximately 75 years old when this article appeared making him about the same age as the Ramon Grijalva of the previous article and also a native of Mexico. This Grijalva would have been approximately 20-25 years old when Ramon Grijalva returned to Phoenix from Altar with the stone tablets so he would have had first hand knowledge of them and what the explanation of the time would have been.

It is either an eerie coincidence, or a common occurance that the stone maps of Ramon Grijalva and the later stone maps found by Travis Tumlinson both are attributed to the same family Peralta, and are both considered maps to specific location(s).

I have always wondered, with nothing to prove the theory, were the stone tablets Travis Tumlinson found the same stone tablets Ramon Grijalva brought from altar, Mexico and were somehow or for some reason buried where Tumlinson found them in 1949 ?

To make the mystery even more eerie and intriguing, Ramon Grijalva, the man who brought the tablets to Phoenix, was the next door neighbor of Jacob Waltz, actually living on the south half of Waltz's property at one time according to Maricopa County and Phoenix town tax records.

I do not know the exact year Garcia Grajalva passed away but recall reading somewhere it was the same time or just prior to when Travis Tumlinson found the stone Maps near Queen Creek.

There are so many similarities and coincidences concerning these two stone map stories, that it is almost impossible to connect the dots if in fact they could be connected. I have just been left shaking my head and wondering if there was ever a connection or just a wild set of coincidences.
Trost
Steven

I have tried to post two long reply's to shed some light on your questions, only to lose them. For now I will say that the fact that Ramon Grijalva brought some stone tablets from his trip to Altar, gave birth to a lot of fabrications concerning the PSM's. Because churches have altars, stories got twisted, and changed.

Some stories floating around fabricated with unreliable sources some too young, and others too old to remember just what they saw, are created just to make a buck.

Besides Misson San Antonio Paduano of Oquitoa, Mex., we also have Nuestra Señora La Asuncion of Arizpe, Mex., and even the Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.

You are already informed of the fact that Gabriel Peralta also lived on the south half of Jacob Waltz's 1/4 section homestead. You may also be familiar with the Pedro Ortega killing said to have be committed by Selso Grijalva outside of Waltz's home, and with Waltz's shotgun.

Apparently there were several Grijalva's, Peralta's, and other Mexican miners looking for the mine that Jacob Waltz had already taken. I believe these Mexicans were children or nephews of the massacred mining party, who grew up hearing the stories of the rich Peralta mine, and the stone maps that had been left behind to locate it once somebody could go back and do it.

The year Jacob Waltz acquired the mine is said to be sometime in the 1860's. According to his deathbed confession who some question, he claimed he killed some Mexicans who were working the mine. One told him he was the only survivor of the massacre, and they told him the mine belonged to Don Miguel Peralta.

In the 1860's there were a group of Mexican miners exploring the area within Queen Creek. Before Picket Post Mountain got it's name, these Mexicans called it La Montaña Tordillo. Tordillo is used to describe a grey dapple horse.

I believe they were looking for the PSM's.

With all that has been written on Jacob Waltz, and his clues, there is no mention of a horse, heart, or priest. So that alone tells you that they were different sets of stones.

Homar P. Olivarez

P.S. I will send you and email showing you why they can not be the same stones Travis T. unearthed, and I will show you how the PSM's are similar to the Grijala stones.

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:50 am

Homar:
Losing a post in progress is a pain, isn't it ! :(
I've started to use notepad for composing longer posts, and saving it at frequent intervals.

I agree with some of your ideas, particularly the lack of evidence within the Waltz chronology, of any connection to the Stone Maps. I had written this some time ago on another site:

" None of the stories about the LDM, as told by Julia, Rhiney or Richard Holmes made mention of any maps carved in stone. Nor did any other gold finds described by others who searched for Waltz's mine include anything other than paper or hide maps, to the best of my knowledge. Even the story of the Peralta Massacre made no reference to stone maps. It could be, that the publication of these articles planted the seeds for the belief that the Stone Maps were made by the Peraltas and lost at the time of the massacre. But this theory seems only to have taken root after the publication, in 1964, of the Life Magazine article about Tumlinson's stones."

There are a number of reasons why I do not believe the Peraltas fabricated the Stone Maps.

First, by all accounts, they and the other Mexican families were prospector/miners. In other words they were in the region, not just the Superstitions but other areas such as the Bradshaws as well, to look for and exploit deposits of gold and silver. That was the basis of their family wealth and their area of expertise by most accounts.There areseveral maps attributed to them, which may be genuine, but these were drawn on materials other than stone. These also show mine locations with
a dot, a circle or an X also labelled "mina", so it seems they had no reservations about identifying the reasons for these maps.The stories/legends surrounding them all describe their efforts as yielding concentrated gold ore, which they transported back to Mexico for enrichment. The Stone Maps on the other hand, do not have the word "mina" upon them,even amongst the fainter markings. The Stone Cross (map) has two dots with the word ORO below, which correlates with the two small holes to the right of the heart pocket IMO. But I believe these to be caches, rather
than mines.Everything written on the Stone Maps and Crosses, while done in Spanish, does appear to have been done by someone with a lesser command of the language and spelling than any of the Peralta's would have had.

Secondly, no "Peralta" map includes words or phrases in latin.
"MEUS", a latin word meaning belongs to me, rather than a hole in the ground, appears in three corresponding places on both the Latin Heart and the "Perficio" map. Other latin words appear on the L/H which also correspond to the words and symbols on the Perficio, in many cases being
in the same relationship to each other. The Perficio Rock which matched the drawing was discovered in the mountains by Abe Reid in the 1910-20 period, long before any of the other stones and was unknown to those who found the other stones. Reid's Perficio carving has never been called into question, nor has Abe ever been accused of forgery by any of the old-timers who knew him. Not one of those who rabidly proclaim the Stone Maps as modern fakes, and the only one who owned the original set, Tumlinson, a con artist, refuse to even discuss to Perficio Rock or the Jesuit Book of Psalms with it's drawing. That speaks volumes to me.

A third reason would be the simple fact that these maps are relatively large and carved on slabs of stone. Many have pointed out the difficulty of transport and use such maps would bring, and the notion that they were hurriedly made by the Peralta's just prior to their flight from the mountains does not make any sense either. We all have good copies of the known maps, just as good as the ones on stone, to find our way. They would have only needed the same.

These Stones were meant to be concealed (cached) and left in place for a long time, perhaps an unknown length of time, by someone who had no hope of being able to return in the short term.
They simply do not fit within any scenario involving the Peralta's mining activities, other than the possibility that they were aware of and were looking for these Stone Maps as well.

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:37 pm

Homar:
From the other thread on Picket Post Mountain:
somehiker wrote:Homar:

"Pickett Post Mountain used to be called Tordillo by the Mexicans before they changed the name to Pickett Post. What most don't know is that "Tordillo" is only used to describe a grey horse."

From the second link:

"1860s Mexican miners explored the area within the Queen Creek Valley looking for Spanish treasures of gold in and around the 1800-foot mountain they named La Montaña Tordillo, “the gray-spotted mountain”, later called “Picket Post Mountain” by the U.S. Army in 1871"

Maybe if they had found them Stone Maps by looking a few miles to the west, they would have found the Spanish treasures of gold they sought.
Don't suppose they knew they were looking for something in the Pinal/Queen Creek area do ya ?

Regards:SH.
Found this on a site about Spanish Horses:

Image

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Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by coazon de oro » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:53 pm

Somehiker,

We all have our ideas, and we often share the same views. I don't expect everyone to see things my way, and am intrigued to see how others see things.

You may be aware how treasure maps seem to surface when there is a demand for them. "Mina", and "oro" are great sellers, the absence of these words on the PSM's should not be any reason to dismiss the Peralta's from creating them.

That's like saying that they can't be Jesuit because of the lack of Latin on them. I know there are many who can't seem to separate the PSM's from the Stone Crosses, and the Latin Heart. The PSM's were not found together with the others. I have always believed they were copied after the Lead Crosses, and the PSM's.

The Latin Heart came after the PSM's, I believe this is the only reason it fits into the heart cavity. It is my opinion that this heart was made by someone who didn't know enough Latin to create a sentence with it, and just pulled words out of a dictionary.

My view on the Perficio Rock, is that it may have been made by a Jesuit priest, not as a map, but rather as part of his teaching to the indians. Missions were built with indian help from indians who were already converted.

It is my opinion that the PSM's stand alone. I believe the Peralta's were working their mines in 1847, and were in the middle of a losing war. They made the map of stone for the sole purpose of enduring since they were not sure of the outcome of the war. They knew they could become prisoners, and didn't want to be caught with any paper map.

The colors of horses are many in the Spanish language. They are different in all the Spanish speaking countries. Like a Bay is "Castaño" in Spain, and other countries, while it is "Colorado" in Mexico, and "Zaino" in other countries. A Gray horse is "Tordo" in Spain, but in Mexico it is "Tordillo". Horse colors are always debated, amongst Mexicans, for these reasons.

Homar

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