Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:20 am

oroblanco wrote:
Please do continue, and Mr Roberts, the assay report being referred to was posted by a person going as "Wasp" and no one assigned it to you, it was one of the many smoke screens and disinformation that has been throwin into circulation around the LDM legend.

Oroblanco
Oroblanco, you posted this to me and said no one assigned it to me. ozarker/larry posted this to you :

Mrs. Oroblanco
Anyway, thanks for your input and questions! Best regards to you and Roy (I appreciated his insights on the Wasp Assay report posted by Kraig Roberts a couple of years back).
Larry


You and ozarker need to get on the same page and co-ordinate your attack and smear plan a little better.

Back to the topic,

The building owner, leaser, leasee, sub-lease, business owner, propriator, worker, clerk question is interesting and semi-informative but doesn't address the question which was the topic of the thread. Thousand + word posts on who the building owner, store leasee, etc. etc. was is informative but just tends to make peoples heads swim and tune out.

The whole question can be broken down into North side of Washington street vs. South side of Washington street. The North side was even numbered addresses and the South side was odd numbered addresses. Makes no difference who owned or leased or sub-leased what or when.

Sims Ely specifically detailed Julia's location as on the South side of Washington Street. Ely's book is not the only reference to Julia being at the location (prior to 1960 and the modern batch of Dutchman books.) Ely and the others would not have been so exacting and detailed about the description of the location if they had not been sure. This, coupled with the Meyer's and Bensol directories for 1891 placing Julia in that location simply raises a question that maybe there was something that the deeds and historical records missed. No one ever said Julia owned the building on the South side of Washington Street, or was the lease holder, or the sub-lease holder, or the store owner. So proving who owned these buildings and held the leases does not give us the whole picture. She was there in some capacity according to the Sims Ely, the directory and newspaper ad's. This is not my story, I didn't write Ely's book, the newspapers or the Directories, I'm just raising the question. I don't care one way or another where Julia had any of her stores, I just find the Ely account an interesting piece of history that has fallen through the cracks.

Matthew
Last edited by Matthew Roberts on Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by roc2rol » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:02 am

Just an observation
I really enjoyed reading the excellent historical study,
the reasoning and bantering
but its occurred to me that its no wonder the Dutchman is lost !
The community can't even determine where Julia oyster bar/bakery was located
on the symmetrical laid out streets of Phoenix
North or South ?
A tunnel or digging in the wilds of the Superstitions only get that much more complicated
search on
roc

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:45 am

Here are the transcripts of the two newspaper articles mentioned a couple of posts back, announcing Julia Thomas' move into the Capitol Building:


Phoenix Daily Herald (28 May 1891) Page 3 Column 2

"The soda water, fruit and confectionary business built up within the past few years by Mrs. J.E. Thomas has become so extensive, that her present quarters proved altogether inadequate. The large and commodious rooms between Jacobs & Co. and The Capitol, on Washington street have therefore been leased. Everything in the way of refreshments, mineral waters, ice cream, oranges, lemons, fruits and candies of all descriptions will be found here. Cool alcoves and prompt attention are provided for all who seek rest and recuperation in this most inviting retreat."



Arizona Daily Gazette (29 May 1891) Page 4 Column 2

"Thomas' ice cream parlor was moved yesterday from the old stand opposite the city hall to the room recently occupied by Coleman's saloon."



In the first article (Phoenix Daily Herald), reference is made to Julia's new store as being between the stores of "Jacobs & Co" and "The Capitol". "Jacobs and Co" was located on the north side of Washington in Block 21, and was to the west of the store that Julia leased (the "Jacobs & Co" lease can be found in Lease Book 2 Page 110). "The Capitol" was the saloon of Pierce Butler and Sarah Pimm, immediately next door to Julia on the east. Their lease can be found in Lease Book 1 Page 398.

In the second article (Arizona Daily Gazette), reference is made to Julia moving from her old place "opposite the city hall" (i.e., in Block 20, across from The Plaza) to the former Coleman's saloon. The fact that she was leasing the former Coleman's saloon also appears in her new lease (see the transcript of Julia's lease in my previous post). James Coleman had just recently leased the space in the Capitol Building from Lofus Goodrich so that he could open a saloon (his lease appears in Lease Book 2 Page 112), but he lost his lease after being indicted on 22 May 1891 for illegally selling saloon fixtures (Arizona Republic). Julia began moving into the store just six days after Coleman's indictment, and her lease offically began four days later, on 1 June 1891. This was just five months before the death of Jacob Waltz.

Julia would not have appeared in the 1891 City Directory at her new location, since the 1891 City Directory (if one even existed) would already have been issued by the time Julia made the move out of Block 20.

Larry

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:45 am

All:

In my initial reponse to the lead-off post of this thread, I stated that I was hesitant to address this particular subject again, for several reasons. But after considering that some very talented people spent several years on some very difficult research, and seeing that some serious inaccuracies were again being presented as historical truth, I decided to share this research, despite my misgivings.

What I failed to do, then and there, was to quote the kick-off post by the thread author (username: Matthew Roberts) in its entirety, as I have been cautioned to do many times.

By going back and editing his original post (twice now, most recently as of yesterday) Kraig Roberts has changed the conversation.

These edits by Roberts were not to fix a broken link, or to fix a typo or bad grammar. They substantively changed what he had said on some points, points which I had counter-argued in subsequent posts. The result is that my later posts now appear as if I'm countering statements that nobody ever made.

I still stand by every word in every one of my posts. And I promise each of you that if I make a substantive change to any one of my positions or arguments, you will know about it immediately, and not because somebody else had to tell you about it.

If I am in error on anything I have said in any of my posts, either in this thread or elsewhere, and it is brought to my attention or I realize it on my own, I will stand up and speak up to acknowledge the error. And I will make the corrections in a new post, leaving my original statements alone. I believe that is the best way to have an open and honest debate.

Likewise, if somebody convinces me of their position, I will acknowledge it.

I sincerely hope that those following this thread recognize the changes that are being made, or that they thought to make a copy of this thread before the edits occurred, so they can see the alterations for themselves. But even that will do absolutely nothing for the folks reviewing this thread for the first time starting today and going forward. They will be the true losers.

What Roberts is doing is unfair to those that have already responded to him and to new visitors to the thread. By not explaining what he has done, or notifying people that he has done it, what he has done is unethical.

Below is my copy of Kraig Roberts' original post. I do not want to violate any rules of etiquette on this board, nor do I necessarily care to be falsely accused of changing Roberts' words into something he never said. That has happened to others that have dealt with this issue before.

I don't know what the answer is - perhaps it is best to put a time limit on editing - say half an hour. That is more than enough time to check your posts for spelling and grammar corrections, and to fix broken links or other problems. But going back and changing your original posts, just so you can change your argument down the line and make others look foolish, is underhanded and should not be allowed. It's a shame that all have to suffer because of the actions of one person.



Kraig Roberts Original Post, as it appeared on 27 September 2013 (sorry for loss of formatting):

Author Message
Matthew Roberts
Post subject: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm



Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.

Emil Thoma (Thomas) and Julia Kaln were married in Colorado City, Texas in 1887. They left Texas and came indirectly to Phoenix. Emil was a meat cutter and butcher while Julia was a baker and made candy items. Shortly after arriving in Phoenix Emil Thomas entered into a rent agreement with Alexander Steinegger in which Steinegger would rent a store on Washington Street (156 E. Washington) in downtown Phoenix to Emil to run a Bakery and Ice Cream parlor. Emil also sold oysters, fresh fruit, sandwiches and soda water at the store.

Alexander Steinegger married Emil Thomas's sister Caroline. Emil and Steinegger were brothers-in-law.

When Emil W. Thomas abandoned Julia he headed for Centralia, Washington leaving Julia with the bills of their bakery and to carry on herself. The business arrangement for the bakery candy, oyster and ice cream parlor that Emil and Julia operated was between Emil Thomas and his brother in law, Alex Steinegger, not with Julia.

As soon as Emil left town, Alexander Steinegger arranged to have someone else lease the store space from him. Julia Thomas was forced to vacate the premises and look for a different location for the ice cream, oyster parlor, confectionery and bakery.

The store Emil Thomas and Julia rented from Steinegger and operated together was located on Washington Street between 1st and 2nd street ( 156 E. Washington ) Block 20 on the North side of Washington Street.

After Emil abandoned Julia, and Steinegger evicted her, Julia found another location, a store owned by two local businessmen, Schooler and Wilson. This store was located on Washington Street between Central and 1st street ( 24 E. Washington ) Block 21 on the North side of Washington Street. Just 1 block west of her previous location.

But the lease for the Schooler and Wilson store did not include a bakery, ice cream, fruit and oyster parlor which was the business Julia was engaged in. Instead, it was a restaurant, the Star Restaurant. It is unclear if Julia sub leased this business to someone else or if she operated the restaurant herself. The business directories for Phoenix do not show her as proprietor at this location. The business remained the Star Restaurant.


From Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. Chapter 7, page 91.

“ Mrs. Thomas had been trained as a baker, and soon after she and her husband came to Phoenix, they started a home bakery. The Thomas bread became quickly popular in the little city, and the business prospered, even though Charley Thomas soon dropped out of the picture and disappeared. Ambitious and daring, Helena Thomas took a lease on a frame building which fronted North on Washington – an east west street – half a block East of the intersection of Washington and Central, which was the business center. ”

“An alley along the Easterly side of the building bisected the block. On these premises she had a partition erected which divided what became the bakery and the business office from a retail section.”

This would be at 21 E. Washington Street on the South side of Washington street in Block 22 of the city of Phoenix. The store, was owned by a man named Phillips who rented (sub-leased) the store to others to run their business. The alley along the easterly side of this building was known as, Cactus Way.

MJ McKeligan owned the building housing “Archer’s saloon” next door to the west of Phillips store. McKeligan sub-leased the saloon to proprietor A.M.Archer who was also the bartender.

This information by Ely is exact and precise and detailed. Not a general location such as, on Washington east of Center Street. Ely was extremely specific of the location. If he hadn’t been sure or didn’t know the location, he would have just given it a general location description. But instead he detailed it right down to the alley that ran by the east side of the business.

Why did Ely do this ? So many things in his book are “general” in nature and he chooses this to become exacting and precise over.

It’s because this is exactly where Julia had her bakery and confectionery after Emil left town and she was forced out of Steinegger’s store.

Julia held the lease briefly on the Schooler and Wilson “Star Restaurant” but she also was the proprietor of the bakery and confectionery that Ely so precisely describes on page 91 of his book.

Where did Ely get this information ?

The Bensol Business Directory for the City of Phoenix, Disturnel’s Directory and business ad’s appearing in the Phoenix Gazette Evening and Saturday Review newspaper. The Directories and ad’s do not say Julia held the lease on the building on the south side of Washington, just that she was the proprietor of the business.

Charles and Dominick Donofrio had been in business selling fruit in Phoenix. Emil Thomas had an arrangement with the Donofrio’s to sell their fruit in his bakery and ice cream parlor. The Donofrio’s began making candy from the prickly pear fruit and selling it along with oranges, lemons and grapefruit. Charles Donofrio held a lease option on the Phillips store at 21 East Washington Street, the store Ely describes as being Julia’s bakery and confectionery.

City directory and advertisements in the Phoenix Gazette and Saturday Review show Julia located at this address selling bakery items, candy, oysters, ice cream and fruit in the summer and fall of 1891.

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:54 am

Here is a comparison of Roberts' original and edited posts, with parts that were affected in bold:


Kraig Roberts Original Post:

Author Message
Matthew Roberts
Post subject: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm



Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.

Emil Thoma (Thomas) and Julia Kaln were married in Colorado City, Texas in 1887. They left Texas and came indirectly to Phoenix. Emil was a meat cutter and butcher while Julia was a baker and made candy items. Shortly after arriving in Phoenix Emil Thomas entered into a rent agreement with Alexander Steinegger in which Steinegger would rent a store on Washington Street (156 E. Washington) in downtown Phoenix to Emil to run a Bakery and Ice Cream parlor. Emil also sold oysters, fresh fruit, sandwiches and soda water at the store.

Alexander Steinegger married Emil Thomas's sister Caroline. Emil and Steinegger were brothers-in-law.

When Emil W. Thomas abandoned Julia he headed for Centralia, Washington leaving Julia with the bills of their bakery and to carry on herself. The business arrangement for the bakery candy, oyster and ice cream parlor that Emil and Julia operated was between Emil Thomas and his brother in law, Alex Steinegger, not with Julia.

As soon as Emil left town, Alexander Steinegger arranged to have someone else lease the store space from him. Julia Thomas was forced to vacate the premises and look for a different location for the ice cream, oyster parlor, confectionery and bakery.

The store Emil Thomas and Julia rented from Steinegger and operated together was located on Washington Street between 1st and 2nd street ( 156 E. Washington ) Block 20 on the North side of Washington Street.

After Emil abandoned Julia, and Steinegger evicted her, Julia found another location, a store owned by two local businessmen, Schooler and Wilson. This store was located on Washington Street between Central and 1st street ( 24 E. Washington ) Block 21 on the North side of Washington Street. Just 1 block west of her previous location.

But the lease for the Schooler and Wilson store did not include a bakery, ice cream, fruit and oyster parlor which was the business Julia was engaged in. Instead, it was a restaurant, the Star Restaurant. It is unclear if Julia sub leased this business to someone else or if she operated the restaurant herself. The business directories for Phoenix do not show her as proprietor at this location. The business remained the Star Restaurant.


From Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. Chapter 7, page 91.

“ Mrs. Thomas had been trained as a baker, and soon after she and her husband came to Phoenix, they started a home bakery. The Thomas bread became quickly popular in the little city, and the business prospered, even though Charley Thomas soon dropped out of the picture and disappeared. Ambitious and daring, Helena Thomas took a lease on a frame building which fronted North on Washington – an east west street – half a block East of the intersection of Washington and Central, which was the business center. ”

“An alley along the Easterly side of the building bisected the block. On these premises she had a partition erected which divided what became the bakery and the business office from a retail section.”

This would be at 21 E. Washington Street on the South side of Washington street in Block 22 of the city of Phoenix. The store, was owned by a man named Phillips who rented (sub-leased) the store to others to run their business. The alley along the easterly side of this building was known as, Cactus Way.

MJ McKeligan owned the building housing “Archer’s saloon” next door to the west of Phillips store. McKeligan sub-leased the saloon to proprietor A.M.Archer who was also the bartender.

This information by Ely is exact and precise and detailed. Not a general location such as, on Washington east of Center Street. Ely was extremely specific of the location. If he hadn’t been sure or didn’t know the location, he would have just given it a general location description. But instead he detailed it right down to the alley that ran by the east side of the business.

Why did Ely do this ? So many things in his book are “general” in nature and he chooses this to become exacting and precise over.

It’s because this is exactly where Julia had her bakery and confectionery after Emil left town and she was forced out of Steinegger’s store.

Julia held the lease briefly on the Schooler and Wilson “Star Restaurant” but she also was the proprietor of the bakery and confectionery that Ely so precisely describes on page 91 of his book.

Where did Ely get this information ?

The Bensol Business Directory for the City of Phoenix, Disturnel's Directory and business ad’s appearing in the Phoenix Gazette Evening and Saturday Review newspaper. The Directories and ad’s do not say Julia held the lease on the building on the south side of Washington, just that she was the proprietor of the business.

Charles and Dominick Donofrio had been in business selling fruit in Phoenix. Emil Thomas had an arrangement with the Donofrio’s to sell their fruit in his bakery and ice cream parlor. The Donofrio’s began making candy from the prickly pear fruit and selling it along with oranges, lemons and grapefruit. Charles Donofrio held a lease option on the Phillips store at 21 East Washington Street, the store Ely describes as being Julia’s bakery and confectionery.

City directory and advertisements in the Phoenix Gazette and Saturday Review show Julia located at this address selling bakery items, candy, oysters, ice cream and fruit in the summer and fall of 1891.




Here is Roberts' edited post, again with changes in bold:

Kraig Roberts Edited Post:

Author Message
Matthew Roberts
Post subject: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm



Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.

Emil Thoma (Thomas) and Julia Kaln were married in Colorado City, Texas in 1883. They left Texas and came indirectly to Phoenix. Emil was a meat cutter and butcher while Julia was a baker and made candy items. Shortly after arriving in Phoenix Emil Thomas entered into a rent agreement with Alexander Steinegger in which Steinegger would rent a store on Washington Street (156 E. Washington) in downtown Phoenix to Emil to run a Bakery and Ice Cream parlor. Emil also sold oysters, fresh fruit, sandwiches and soda water at the store.

Alexander Steinegger married Emil Thomas's sister Caroline. Emil and Steinegger were brothers-in-law.

When Emil W. Thomas abandoned Julia he headed for Centralia, Washington leaving Julia with the bills of their bakery and to carry on herself. The business arrangement for the bakery candy, oyster and ice cream parlor that Emil and Julia operated was between Emil Thomas and his brother in law, Alex Steinegger, not with Julia.

As soon as Emil left town, Alexander Steinegger arranged to have someone else lease the store space from him. Julia Thomas was forced to vacate the premises and look for a different location for the ice cream, oyster parlor, confectionery and bakery.

The store Emil Thomas and Julia rented from Steinegger and operated together was located on Washington Street between 1st and 2nd street ( 156 E. Washington ) Block 20 on the North side of Washington Street.

After Emil abandoned Julia, Julia found another location, a store owned by a local businessman. This store was located on Washington Street between Central and 1st street ( 24 E. Washington ) Block 21 on the North side of Washington Street. Just 1 block west of her previous location.

But the lease for the new store did not include a bakery, ice cream, fruit and oyster parlor which was the business Julia was engaged in. Instead, it was a restaurant, the Star Restaurant. It is unclear if Julia sub leased this business to someone else or if she operated the restaurant herself. The business directories for Phoenix do not show her as proprietor at this location. The business remained the Star Restaurant.


From Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. Chapter 7, page 91.

“ Mrs. Thomas had been trained as a baker, and soon after she and her husband came to Phoenix, they started a home bakery. The Thomas bread became quickly popular in the little city, and the business prospered, even though Charley Thomas soon dropped out of the picture and disappeared. Ambitious and daring, Helena Thomas took a lease on a frame building which fronted North on Washington – an east west street – half a block East of the intersection of Washington and Central, which was the business center. ”

“An alley along the Easterly side of the building bisected the block. On these premises she had a partition erected which divided what became the bakery and the business office from a retail section.”


This would be at 33 E. Washington Street on the South side of Washington street in Block 22 of the city of Phoenix. The store, was owned by a man named Phillips who rented (sub-leased) the store to others to run their business. The alley along the easterly side of this building was known as, Cactus Way.

MJ McKeligan owned the building housing “Archer’s saloon” next door to the west of Phillips store. McKeligan sub-leased the saloon to proprietor A.M.Archer who was also the bartender.

This information by Ely is exact and precise and detailed. Not a general location such as, on Washington east of Center Street. Ely was extremely specific of the location. If he hadn’t been sure or didn’t know the location, he would have just given it a general location description. But instead he detailed it right down to the alley that ran by the east side of the business.

Why did Ely do this ? So many things in his book are “general” in nature and he chooses this to become exacting and precise over.

It’s because this is exactly where Julia ws working with her bakery and confectionery after Emil left town and she was forced out of Steinegger’s store.

Julia held the lease on the "Star Restaurant" but she also was the proprietor of the bakery and confectionery that Ely so precisely describes on page 91 of his book.

Where did Ely get this information ?

The Bensol Business Directory for the City of Phoenix, Meyer's Directory, and business ad’s appearing in the Phoenix Gazette Evening and Saturday Review newspaper. The Directories and ad’s do not say Julia held the lease on the building on the south side of Washington, just that she was the proprietor of the business.

Charles and Dominick Donofrio had been in business selling fruit in Phoenix. Emil Thomas had an arrangement with the Donofrio’s to sell their fruit in his bakery and ice cream parlor. The Donofrio’s began making candy from the prickly pear fruit and selling it along with oranges, lemons and grapefruit. Charles Donofrio held a lease option on the Phillips store at 33 East Washington Street, the store Ely describes as being Julia’s bakery and confectionery.

City directory and advertisements in the Phoenix Gazette and Saturday Review show Julia located at this address selling bakery items, candy, oysters, ice cream and fruit in the summer and fall of 1891. These are my personal opinions based on what I have been able to read and learn.


Last edited by Matthew Roberts on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:08 am

Since ozarker has violated the rules of the forum and personally attacked me in his posts I will respond to his false and petty accusations and totally off topic ravings.

Nobody here is changing history as ozarker falsely asserted. He is blowing things way out of proportion. This thread is about a simple matter, why did Ely write what he did, not a moritorium on alleged wrongdoings or your personal fantasy vendetta. ozarker could simply post his information and state this is what he believes and leave it at that. Instead he breaks the DUSA Forum rules and personally attacks other members with false accusations, many of which are not even related to the thread topic.

Sims Ely wrote what he did because that was his information and what he believed.

I didn't write Sims Ely's book. I didn't write the Phoenix newspapers, I didn't write Bensol's Phoenix Directory, or Disturnel's Phoenix Directory, or Meyer's Phoenix Business directory, or John Mitchell's book, or Higham's book, or Joseph Allen's book or any other publication that tells the same story that Ely was portraying. So stop trying to make readers believe I am somehow "rewriting history." It's not my story, I just brought up a simple question that for all the research, input of opinion and blatantly false accusations provided here, still hasn't answered that simple question.

Why was Sim's Ely so meticulous about the location of Julia's store being on the South side of Washington Street and why do the business directory for the city of Phoenix in 1891 place Julia at that same location ? (in some unspecified capacity). That simple question still has not been answered. Instead we are treated to personal attacks and a raving personal vendetta about imagined injustices.

That simple question brought on a tirade including ozarker and oroblanco conspiring together in this thread to make readers believe I posted an allegedly bogus assay report on some website in the past. (see ozarker and oroblanco's previous posts).

ozarker has little room to take any high ground whatsoever after his own actions and conduct here in this thread. Since he conspired with oroblanco and tried to mislead the readers about my involvement with an assay report one can only assess every one of the other posts are filled with the same deviousness and attempts to mislead. People who spread false information and conspire to mislead and falsely accuse others shouldn't be throwing any stones in the glass house they live in. Their own credibility is zero after that despicable post that they conveniently hoped no one would catch.

Apologize for the off topic comments but ozarkers unwarranted personal attacks needed to be answered.
Back to the topic,

I don't know the exact workings of where Julia was in October 1891. I do not think anyone can say with 100% certainty. I know all about the leases and the building owners and the sub-leases and the propritors and on and on ....... That doesn't answer the question why Ely wrote South side and the directory placed Julia in that same location. That was my only question. Perhaps Julia was working two jobs or running two operations at the same time ? That is within the realm of possibility. No one says you have to hold a lease to be working in a store so researching leases and deeds will not give you 100% of the picture. This is just my personal opinion on the Ely matter.

Hopefully the personal attacks will stop and this thread can stay on topic, be courteous and respectful of others ideas and within the DUSA forum rules.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:30 am

Mr Roberts:

I'm all for sticking to the subject. I just hope the subject matter doesn't keep changing.

As long as we we are on the subject, you said:

"Why was Sim's Ely so meticulous about the location of Julia's store being on the South side of Washington Street and why do the business directory for the city of Phoenix in 1891 place Julia at that same location ?"

Will you please post a link to the 1891 directory that you are referring to?

If the directory is not on line, will you please provide a scan of the page out of the 1891 directory you are referring to?

If you cannot post a scan (I still can't figure it out), will you please type up and post a simple transcript of the exact entry that appears in the 1891 directory, showing Julia in the location that Sims Ely describes?


Thanks in advance.

Larry

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:14 pm

Ozarker wrote:Mr Roberts:

I'm all for sticking to the subject. I just hope the subject matter doesn't keep changing.

As long as we we are on the subject, you said:

"Why was Sim's Ely so meticulous about the location of Julia's store being on the South side of Washington Street and why do the business directory for the city of Phoenix in 1891 place Julia at that same location ?"

Will you please post a link to the 1891 directory that you are referring to?

If the directory is not on line, will you please provide a scan of the page out of the 1891 directory you are referring to?

If you cannot post a scan (I still can't figure it out), will you please type up and post a simple transcript of the exact entry that appears in the 1891 directory, showing Julia in the location that Sims Ely describes?

Thanks in advance.

Larry

ozarker,

And since I had never once in this thread responded to your posts with misrepresentation and lies about you or your comments, I'm sure you will be glad to first kick the ball off by providing your own sources for the numerous "facts" you presented that you insinuated and outright stated were attributed to me.

"For some reason it is important to Mr. Roberts to keep Julia in the store misidentified by Ely".
Please give the link to where it is important to me as I merely asked a question.

"Its not clear to me why anyone (Mr. Roberts) would continue to try and sell this bill of goods ..."
Please give the link to me trying to sell this bill of goods.

"false history that has been recently invented by somebody for who knows what reason."
Please give the link that supports this fact.

"Mr. Roberts has decided to resurrect or perpetuate the myth."
Please give the link that I am not asking a question and resurrecting and perpetuating a myth."

"Seeing that serious inaccuracies were again being presented as historical truth."
Please give the link that someone presented anything here other than as an opinion of what happened.

"BTW, I'm not sure why the Capitol saloon was mislabeled the George Roberts saloon, although I'm fairly certain that like the Alkire Grocery, it had to do with the false history being circulated."
Please give the link detailing this "false history being circulated".

And please provide the link to the website or forum where you and oroblanco stated as fact I posted a ficticious assay report.

There are several others but I will let you work on these for a start.

thanks in advance.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by oroblanco » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:53 pm

Hola amigos,
Whew! Looks like some ruffed feathers and a lot of information, as well as accusations went flying here. As this post will be rather long, and drifting off topic, I must ask for your patience, thanks in advance.

Matthew Roberts wrote
Oroblanco, you posted this to me and said no one assigned it to me. ozarker/larry posted this to you :

Mrs. Oroblanco
Anyway, thanks for your input and questions! Best regards to you and Roy (I appreciated his insights on the Wasp Assay report posted by Kraig Roberts a couple of years back).
Larry

You and ozarker need to get on the same page and co-ordinate your attack and smear plan a little better.
Is your name Kraig or Matthew, Mr Roberts? I thought you were Matthew Roberts, not Kraig? Hence my post, quote
Please do continue, and Mr Roberts, the assay report being referred to was posted by a person going as "Wasp" and no one assigned it to you, it was one of the many smoke screens and disinformation that has been throwin into circulation around the LDM legend. This discussion took place on the LDM forums, and I believe it is still there if you are curious. {/quote]
From:
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic. ... 181#p29181


Thank you in advance, and for what it is worth, this is not some "smear plan". If it were some kind of smear intended, do you think I would have posted that the Wasp assay discussion did NOT pertain to you? I thought this thread was intended to try to set the record straight on some points in the LDM legend, not get into some kind of p__sing contest. We will all benefit by having the facts, right?

Matthew Roberts also wrote
That simple question brought on a tirade including ozarker and oroblanco conspiring together in this thread to make readers believe I posted an allegedly bogus assay report on some website in the past. (see ozarker and oroblanco's previous posts).
and
Since he conspired with oroblanco and tried to mislead the readers about my involvement with an assay report one can only assess every one of the other posts are filled with the same deviousness and attempts to mislead. People who spread false information and conspire to mislead and falsely accuse others shouldn't be throwing any stones in the glass house they live in. Their own credibility is zero after that despicable post that they conveniently hoped no one would catch.
Conspiring together, because we know each other I presume? To what end, one might wonder? Neither of us stand to gain a thing by such "conspiracy" and our friendship is really none of anyone's business, especially as it has nothing whatever to do with the subject matter at hand besides a common interest. You and I have met personally as well Mr Roberts, does that mean that you and I must be conspiring to defame someone?

I would like to ask you what statements have I made concerning you personally, other than to say that you were not involved in the Wasp assay posts several years ago on another forum entirely? I fail to see anything attacking you personally in any of my posts. Thank you in advance for this as well, and perhaps have a cup of coffee or hot cocoa. I get the impression you are reading far more into the posts than is really there.

One last thing here, but as for my own "credibility" well heck, everyone knows Oroblanco is a danged liar! What fools everyone is when I slip a bit of truth in there with the lies!

Gracias to our mutual amigo and moderator Somehiker, for moving this thread where it properly should be. I hope we can get back onto track, as it is quite interesting information.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco <Roy A. Decker, if anyone is curious>

Ozarker
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The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:12 pm

Mr Roberts:

Thanks for the questions.

I'm not sure any answer I give you is going to be satisfactory, but I'll give it a shot because I really want to see that 1891 City Directory listing for Julia.

I'm fairly sure I gave an overview of at least a few of the historical inaccuracies that have crept into the LDM story over the years, and I think the ones I listed all have a bearing on the subject of this thread. There are a great many more that I didn't address, but I'm sure folks get the general idea, and I'm sure we wouldn't want too many "thousand-plus word posts" here that "make people's heads swim" causing them to "tune out". Agreed?

Okay then, here goes.

In your original lead-off post, yes, you certainly posed the question of why Sims Ely was so specific about the location of Julia's relocated business. But you didn't "merely ask [the] question". You then made the following positive assertive statement:

"It’s because this is exactly where Julia had her bakery and confectionery after Emil left town and she was forced out of Steinegger’s store."

My initial response was keyed to this positive assertion by you.


Moving on to your second question, please refer back to my initial post in this thread. You have arbitrarily inserted your name in parentheses, like so: "(Mr. Roberts)", into my statement. I never wrote the statement as you have quoted it.


As for your third question, the link you ask for would first be to this very thread. I identified some of the false history that has been created, stated that it was my desire to correct some of those inaccuracies, and I presented the research that refuted the inaccuracies that I believe related to this thread. I may not have been successful in everybody's eyes, but I'm trying my best. I would also refer you to my answer to your sixth question below.


Fourth question. Here again, I refer you back to your original post in this thread. I agree that you posed the question about Ely - but I saw your positive assertion that Julia was definitely in the store misidentified by Ely as a resurrection of the myth that needed to be addressed. I followed this throughout the thread with primary source records and newspaper accounts that I believe supported my case with facts.


Fifth question. I hate to sound so repetitive, but please refer to my answers concerning your first and fourth question. Your positive assertion is what drew my response.


Sixth question. Aaah...yeah, see that's going to be a problem. Not only because there is no link, and not because a detailed response here would equal several thousand-plus word posts, but because my primary source for this comment was a series of direct conversations with Robert Corbin, husband of Helen Corbin, who was the author of the book where this annotated Sanborn map first appeared in public. (These were the maps showing the annotation of George Roberts Saloon, as well as all the other annotations). These conversations between me and Bob Corbin, which were also participated in by three other researchers going over the details of the development of Helen's book, took place in May, June, July, October, November, and December of 2011. I'm afraid there is no link to to those conversations - but Bob Corbin would be happy to confirm they took place if you'd like to call him and discuss it. If you'd rather not talk to Bob Corbin (understandable) I can provide you with the names of the other three researchers who took part in the conversations.


Last question. This is a little embarrassing to address because of the way things happened, but I'll do my best to explain. I see that oroblanco has already jumped in here to give his input on this - but this is my take. First, I never said that the report that I recalled you posting was fictitious. I repeat - I never said any report by you was fictitious. If you doubt this, go back and read what I said. (I have not edited any of my posts, I can assure you). Second, I was merely calling out a "howdy" to oroblanco, as I had not talked to him for a good long while, and to my recollection that was the last thing that he and I had discussed back then. I mentioned it as a way of jarring his memory, so he would recall who it was that was saying "howdy". It was nothing more than that, and if you feel slighted in any way because of it, then I offer my heart-felt apology to you. Seriously Kraig, I apologize.

Now, can we please see the 1891 Directory listing for Julia Thomas?

Please?

Larry

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