Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

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Matthew Roberts
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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:58 am

Mr. Ozarker,

So on my requests 1-6 you have no links other than your say so and other conversations you had with other people that also cannot be linked and you tell me to go and find out what was said myself. Thats your link ?

Ok, so if that works for you as far as providing links and sources, using your own criteria , go look it up yourself .

As for the conspiracy between you and oroblanco to make readers here believe I posted some ficticious assy report. Oroblanco went into great detail in his post to outline the "phoney" assay report and to tell everyone here how it was a part of a diabolical plan to change history and ruin the reputations of good people.

Then you in a later post thank oroblanco for reminding you of the assay report and state in fact, Kraig Roberts posted it.

Just another misrepresentation (as in lie) that you have vomited out here. I'm sure you thought you were too smart to have anyone realize you and oroblanco cooked the whole despicable scheme up and worked together to foist it on the forum. Your credibility with the forum's serious and rule abiding members is zero.
Your inability to truthfully own up to what you tried to get away with leaves me in no debt to you to provide you with anything.

If you would remember you would have known I already posted the information to the directory reference. All you have to do is go back and write it down.


To those seriously following this thread,

The A. Leonard Meyer's Business Directory of the City of Phoenix (Arizona) 1891.

I'm not an expert on the old Phoenix City and Business directories so only know the little I have learned over the years which I'm sure is not everything that can be known.

From what I have learned I understand there was not 1 directory but 3 and possibly a 4th. So it depends on which directory you are looking at as they were seperate directories and not all published on the same date.

Bensol City and Bensol Business Directories.
Disturnell City and Business Directory.
A. Leonard Meyer City and Business Directories.
another directory published in Tucson but included some Phoenix business.

Meyer's directory was the only one published and printed in Phoenix locally. The others were printed in SanFrancisco and elsewhere. Meyer published both a city, business and Arizona-Phoenix government directory. Some of his directory was annual, some semi or quarter annual. Anton Meyer was a Phoenix businessman, printer, freight agent and Mayor of Phoenix I believe about 1889. What I post is always my personal opinion based on what I have been able to learn through dozens of different sources.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by StevenTrost » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:31 pm

Matthew,

I think something you said is probably more important than all the research data presented here. " No one says you have to hold a lease to be working in a store so researching leases and deeds will not give you 100% of the picture."

That is absolutely true. When I was young I worked night shift at a lumber yard. During the day I took another job at a hardware store owned by two brothers in their 70's. They literaly turned the keys over to me. I opened up, ran the place, locked up and they even offered me a place to live in the upstairs of the old building if I wanted it. Researching every lease and deed is great and gets you a picture but it is by far not the whole picture. What if Julia was doing the same thing I was doing ? I don't know or pretend to know the story but there is a lot more to consider than just reading deeds and saying that was that.

This forum needs a moderator to step in. The attacking and off topic comments are not appreciated by those of us who want to discuss the threads topic in peace. I'm sick of the same bunch of flamers and trolls attacking people and trying to divert and derail the threads from their intended topic. The thread is about Sims Ely's quotation in his book The Lost Dutchman Mine. Not personal attacks on members who are trying to stick to that topic.

Steven Trost

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:27 pm

The problem as I see it is that Ely does not say that Julia worked in a store facing N on Washington, or that she helped run the business there. He states, "Helena Thomas TOOK A LEASE on a frame building...."

Unless Julia took out a lease on BOTH building's - one on either side of Washington, the preponderance of the evidence suggests (to me at least) that Ely was somehow mistaken.

As an aside, there are certainly more than a few instances in Ely's book, where his specific facts appear to not be correct - I don't blame him at all to be honest. I feel he was likely under some send of pressure to get his book written before he passed away - whether that was outside pressure or his own self I don't know.

To me, the reason Ely stated the location that he did in his book is because he believed at the time the book was written that that was the correct location - whether he wrote it down wrong at some point, got bad information from someone along the way or not we'll never know.

Yes, there's always the possibility that Julia could have been "running" both businesses for some reason - that's always a possibility, not probably, but possible. However, as I said, Ely stated she had that lease, and I don't believe she did.

Kraig, does Greg have the newspaper clippings in his collection with advertisements suggesting Julia's business was located on the S side of Washington? Just curious as I would like to see them and try to figure this mystery out if possible.

See you in a few weeks.

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by StevenTrost » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:53 pm

"Yes, there's always the possibility that Julia could have been "running" both businesses for some reason - that's always a possibility, not probably, but possible. However, as I said, Ely stated she had that lease, and I don't believe she did."

I dont know much about the matter but to me I don't think Julia had a lease at the Ely location, if anything she was working there either as a baker or running the store for whoever did have a lease on it. That is entirely possible, I was in a situation where that could have been the case with myself once so to me it is very possible it all depends on your circumstences.

I doubt if Sims Ely ever reserched the leases while writing his book. saying Julia took a lease may just have been an asumption on his part. The location Ely gives in the book is to detailed to be a mistake in my mind.

I went and looked for the Phoenix directory's and found a little and some on the Lenerd Meyer directory's and his business in phoenix. I'm not very good at internet research so am sure more is there I just don't know how to look for it. We tend to believe everything is somewhere on the net but the fact is for all thats there its still only a small portion and much of whats there is errors. Just my 2 cents worth.

Steven

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by coazon de oro » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:33 pm

Howdy Steven,

Your 2 cents have a lot of value. I too believe that not everything that is written is the gospel, and that includes "records".

I myself have had to have some records corrected, and have heard of others having the same problems.

Homar

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:00 pm

Hello All:

Since it appears that the 1891 city directory issue will have to wait, I thought I'd go ahead and post some information about the store that Ely referred to.

The store misidentified by Ely was in a building that was owned by George Loring at the time of Waltz's death. The legal description of the property was Lot 13 Block 22 of the Original Phoenix Townsite. The west half of the lot housed a saloon and restaurant (McKelligon's Saloon at the time of Waltz's death), while the east half of the lot housed the bakery/confectionery/ice cream store of Phillips and Leggat.

George Loring acquired the property from the Bichard estate in 1878 (Maricopa County Records, Deed Book 4 Page 158).

At the beginning of 1891, Loring had the store under lease to the Dorris Brothers, and it was being operated by them as a confectionery and fruit store and oyster parlor. They also had a fancy soda fountain.

The Dorris Bros. kitchen, located in the rear of the store, was damaged by the rains which caused the February 1891 flood, the same flood that has been attributed to Jacob Waltz's death:

(Arizona Republic, 24 February 1891, page 1 column 6)

"Adobe buildings about town are still falling. A portion of the Phoenix Hotel caved in yesterday, and the kitchen department of Dorris Bros.' oyster parlors began to sink and crack so badly that they moved everything out of it."


About a week or so after the flood, after things had dried out a little, George Loring began rebuidling the kitchen section of the building:

(Arizona Republic, 3 March 1891, page 4 column 1)

"George Loring is having the old adobe building, in the rear of Dorris' fruit store, taken down and will erect a brick in its stead."


Within the same month, the Dorris Bros decided to sell out to Phillips and Leggat, who intended to continue the store in the same line of business. The Bill of Sale from the "Dorris Bros Fruit Confectionery and Oyster and Ice Cream Parlor" to Phillips & Leggat was executed on 25 March 1891 (Maricopa County Records, Miscellaneous Book 4 Page 407), and it specifically included the Dorris Bro.'s leasehold from George Loring.

On 15 May 1891, George Loring executed a Deed of Trust to RF Kirkland, making Kirkland responsible for executing leases and collecting rents for Loring's properties, including Lot 13 Block 22 (Deed Book 26 Page 183).

On 26 July 1891, there was a shootout on Washington Street that made the front page of the Arizona Republic newspaper. It was a major story, covering the entire first two columns of Page 1. The shooting by both parties was described in detail, with one of the parties trying to take shelter behind the barber pole of Shoemaker's Barber Shop (physically located in the Capitol Building where Julia's store was located - see Lease Book 1 Page 385 for the Shoemaker Barbershop lease) while the other shooter was across Washington Street trying to hide behind a telephone pole in front of the "Phillips and Leggat's Fruit Store". The following is a short excerpt from column 2 of the article, where one of the shooters was giving his side of the story:

(Arizona Republic, 26 July 1891, Page 1 Columns 1 and 2, excerpt from column 2)

"About that time Miner stepped out of Phillips and Legget's fruit store, with an oath. I then drew my pistol and commenced firing. Miner planted himself behind a large telephone post in front of the fruit store then I shielded myself behind the barber's pole of Shoemaker's shop. We both continued firing, I until my pistol was discharged. About the time I fired the last shot Marshal Blankenship and Deputy Constable Moffat approached Miner and myself with drawn guns and arrested us. Mr Moffatt told me, as he was bringing me to the courthouse..."


(Note: All three of the above articles can be viewed on-line at the Chronicling America website, run by the Library of Congress, but it is currently down because of the Government shutdown. I'll link to the articles shortly - hopefully)

So this shooting took place just three months before Waltz's death, and the store was specifically identified as Phillips and Leggat's fruit store.

Toward the end of 1891, probably during the month of December (just five weeks after Waltz died) information was collected for inclusion in the 1892 City Directory. A man named C. E. Holland was working as the clerk for the Phillips & Leggat store, and was listed in the 1892 Directory as boarding (residing) at the store:

http://distantcousin.com/Directories/AZ ... p?Page=076


Of course, the Phillips and Leggat store itself also appeared in the 1892 Directory, just as Julia Thomas did at her business right across the street.

http://distantcousin.com/Directories/AZ ... p?Page=169


On 31 December 1891, RF Kirkland (see above) executed a new 3-year lease for the store to Phillips and Leggatt (Lease Book 2 Page 234).

So that provides a snapshot of the year 1891 at the Phillips and Leggat Confectionery and Fruit Store, the store mistakenly identified by Sim Ely as being leased and operated by Julia Thomas

Several years down the road, on 3 January 1898, Jennie Libby Loring (George Loring's wife) executed a lease for the confectionery store to a new tenant, Mrs MG Wood, stating specifically in the lease that the store was the "building previously occupied by Phillips as an Ice Cream Parlor and Confectionery store". That lease can be found in Lease Book 2 Page 563.

The Lorings finally sold the property in 1899 to Mons Ellingson (Deed Book 48 Page 142). Mons Ellingson is the guy who eventually leased the property to Donofrio's for a confectionery (Lease Book 4 Page 97).

So in a nutshell, the Phillips and Leggat Confectionery (later operated just by Phillips) was in operation at the store from about April 1891 to about December 1897.


Larry

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Olaf » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:17 am

Ozarker,

Please Stop!

You are embarrassing many of us following this thread.

You are destroying all of the mysteries, our conspiracies theories and the hidden meanings, regarding the Julia Thomas story that we thrive on. We are not used to having actual sources thrown in our faces. Don’t expect any accolades.

If you stop, time will probably heal our wounds and we can eventually get back to our own versions of the history.

In short, don’t make us look anymore ……...

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:19 am

Steven,

yes, I agree with your comments 100%. I don't think Ely was completely wrong. I don't argue with any research on leases and deeds, just part company with how that information is often interpreted and assumed to be 100% of the way things were. If you are at the Rendezvous later this month, look me up, I have something to show you that you might be interested in.

Cubfan,

I have to run up to Burbank this morning so only have time for a quick reply. I'm not sure if Greg has the 1891 Meyer's Directory in his collection or not. I never had any reason to look for it there. The group put together by B. David Russell is where I saw it. We will talk at the Rendezvous and go into detail. This will be in a book coming out on the LDM sometime next year.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:41 am

Olaf wrote:Ozarker,

Please Stop!

You are embarrassing many of us following this thread.

You are destroying all of the mysteries, our conspiracies theories and the hidden meanings, regarding the Julia Thomas story that we thrive on. We are not used to having actual sources thrown in our faces. Don’t expect any accolades.

If you stop, time will probably heal our wounds and we can eventually get back to our own versions of the history.

In short, don’t make us look anymore ……...

Olaf

I don't think anyone here, doesnt appreciate document research done on what we know as the LDM Legend. Document research is great but it doesn't tell the whole story. When that document research is interpreted as absolute and all there is to the matter, you miss some valuable pieces of the puzzle.

It is possible to present document research and differing opinions without attacking someone else's view and opinion and attempting to smear others because of some imagined slight. That's all anyone asks here, the opportunity to post their opinions without being personally attacked and smeared. I love the document research that has been done and appears here. I dislike the attacks and misrepresentations. I disagree with some of the document research but it is not my research and the persons who did the research are entitled to post their opinions about it without my telling them they are wrong.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:39 am

Hello All:

Definitive statements have been made in this thread that the 1891 directories for Phoenix showed Julia Thomas running her own business (i.e., was the proprietor of her bakery and confectionery) on the south side of Washington Street at the location identified in Sims Ely's book. We have even been told that Sims Ely used such a directory (or directories) as a source for his information (I'm not sure how the poster knew this - but it was a positive assertion).

The details have been evolving a bit, and more recent posts now state that the directories show Julia at that location "in some capacity".

But none of the other detailed research actually presented here indicates that Julia Thomas ever operated a business on the south side of Washington Street - ever. Not in any capacity. Not as a leaser, manager, proprietor, clerk, shelf-stocker, or general busy-bee. Not when she first arrived in Phoenix when she started her own stand-alone business, and not when she and her husband Emil were in business with Alex Steinegger. Not when she and her husband left the Steinegger partnership to run their own new store together (no eviction of Julia from Steinegger's store involved), and not when Julia made her final and solo relocation to the Capitol Building in late May 1891.

An honest question has been raised about the existence of any such directory, and a simple, straight-forward request for a link, scan, or transcript for the specific entry for Julia Thomas was made so that the readers could see it for themselves. That request was denied.

I don't see what's so hard about providing the actual Julia Thomas listing(s) being referred to from any of the generic directories now being cited as proof (similar to what was done for the 1892 Directory listing for Julia) . That should be relatively simple.

Providing a generic list of the generic directories that appeared in Phoenix over the years does not point the readers to which directory the listing for Julia appears in, so that any one of the readers can request the document from any historical society that might hold it, and then post it here themselves for discussion.

Others have pointed out, and I fully agree, that any one of us can make a simple mistake, or misinterpret something we have seen, and so it is with these directory listings. We are being asked to take it on faith that such a directory exists, and that within that (and possibly more than one) directory, there is proof positive that Julia Thomas was at Ely's location.

All I ask is that the readers be allowed to see that proof. Allow them to judge for themselves.



Olaf:

I am almost done - I promise. :D ;)

Larry

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