Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

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Mrs.Oroblanco
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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:18 pm

I can post these, but cannot see them :?:

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:25 pm

Image

Now, you have me a little confused again - apparently, you don't think the Sanborn map is valid, it is the one from Helen's book that you asked me about, is it not?
Either way, Thomas' Ice Cream stayed that name until at least 1921, as advertised in several newspapers. I can post them all - but, that would be overkill.

Also, Julia was determined, in 1892, to search the Supes for a treasure she, to some, did not believe in.

Note: They said (the paper) Mr., but it is obviously Julia, since MR. was not a woman.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:56 pm

Hello Mrs O:

Sorry for the confusion.

To be clear, I don't have any doubts about any of the original Sanborn maps themselves. What I was trying to point out about the maps in Helen's book was that the hand-written annotations (for example, "George Roberts Saloon" and "Alkire Grocery" and "Julia Thomas Bakery") were all in error. That was not Helen's fault.

The underlying maps (i.e., the original baseline maps by The Sanborn Fire Insurance Company) were and are as good as we are possibly going to get with that kind of detail.

I'm not sure about your other comments - I can't see the attachments you're trying to post.

Julia Thomas and Albert Schaffer were married on 26 July 1893, one year after she sold the store in the Capitol Building to Schooler and Wilson. Thereafter, she was known and was listed as Mrs Albert Schaffer or Mrs Julia Schaffer, until they changed their last name to Israel due to their religion.

Julia (Thomas) Schaffer Israel died in 1917.

So I'm a little confused by your reference to 1921 - perhaps if I could see the ad you're referring to I could help.

To post images, you first need to upload them to Photobucket or Imageshack, size them so they'll fit the forum, then copy and paste the IMG code assigned by the site you uploaded them to into your post in the place you want them to appear.

(It sounds daunting, but it's not that bad. Just go to one of their sites and get a free account and go from there).

Also, see the forum instructions here for a guide:

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1758

Hope this helps.

Larry

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by roc2rol » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:30 pm

Hi Beth & Roy

Beth you still faceting ?
I'm more knowledgeable now then back in the day
Also, Julia was determined, in 1892, to search the Supes for a treasure she, to some, did not believe in.
As to this statement- I may be one of those fellars that fall into that category.
I can't substantiate it. But Julia a very interesting person of interest in the LDM
and perhaps her story hasn't been thoroughly told ?
So I find this thread intriguing.

Didn't mean to get into the middle of the discussion
just wanted to say 'hi' before I forgot.

Ed

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by StevenTrost » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:42 pm

Matthew Roberts wrote:
Matthew Roberts wrote:Sims Ely

The Lost Dutchman Mine

Wm. Morrow and Company Inc. 425 4th Avenue New York City 16
1953 1.7G GR Western Folklore
6 printings : 1953, Jan 1954, Apr 1957, Dec 1960, Oct 1964, Apr 1966.

14 Chapters
178 Pages
55,960 Words

The Lost Dutchman Mine is a VERY short book. It is written for all ages, that is to say there are no big words or technical terms. It is listed by Morrow and Company the publisher as a 6th grade reading level (1953). The book can easily be read cover to cover by an average reader in a few hours. The chapters are short, the shortest chapter 8 pages, the longest 23 pages, most chapters are 10-13 pages. Short chapters keep the reader engaged longer. The format and layout of the book is designed in large type and wide spacing, this makes the book extremely easy reading and holds the reader to keep on reading.

You often hear people say, the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely is the best book ever written about the LDM with the best information because Ely was closer to the time and sources.

None of these statements are exceptionally true.

The book is the easiest to read of all the Dutchman books, not to confuse easiest to read with, the best book. The book is both filled with wonderful acurate information and at the same time, with inaccuracies from beginning to end.
Sims Ely proves beyond a doubt that being close in time to the story and characters, is not an advantage.

The Lost Dutchman Mine is a wonderful book, lots of great stories and accounts thrown together in an almost flowing but slightly disjointed account. In spite of many inaccuracies, Ely does give some good solid insight. I enjoy the book, I’ve read it cover to cover at least a dozen times. I even have some pages fairly well memorized. Ely did a good job and the book sold very well.

Of course in 1953 with the fantastic boom of the Western movies and Cowboy television shows, and the full backing of Morrow and Company of New York into every major market in America, it was a sure thing it would be a success. Morrow was one of the 3 top publishers in North America in 1953.

The book received a tepid review when it was released. No earthshaking reviews, an average, good book, good looking cover and maps, no photos or index, priced reasonably.

A short overview of each of the 14 Chapters in The Lost Dutchman Mine


Chapter 1. 12 pgs. Describes the Superstition mountains. Story of Adolph Ruth.

Chapter 2. 8 pgs. Jim Bark.

Chapter 3. 13 pgs. Dr. Abraham Thorne story. Simon Novinger story.

Chapter 4. 15 pgs. Jacob Weiser, John D Walker, Tom Weedin, the rawhide map.

Chapter 5. 23 pgs. Two soldiers, Aaron Mason, EA Panknin and the swamper.

Chapter 6. 12 pgs. Joe Dearing, John Chewing, more about Dr. Abraham Thorne story.

Chapter 7. 11 pgs. Jacob Waltz, Helena Thomas, Charles Thomas, Reiney Petrasch, Waltz pays Helena’s debts with gold, Waltz ships gold to San Francisco.

Chapter 8. 16 pgs. Waltz tells story of his mine. Waltz partner Weiser. Weiser’s death. The mine and caches. Peralta’s in Mexico. Flood of 1891, Waltz’s death.

Chapter 9. 10 pgs. Corroboration of Waltz stories by his neighbors and Phoenix residents. Helena Thomas, Jim Bark, Reiney, Herman Petrasch, A.L. and Fred Henshaw.

Chapter 10. 11 pgs. Cowboy accounts of the mine. Trails and clues. Bluff Springs Mt. Tortilla Mt. Charlebois and LeBarge. Jimmy Gibson, Jimmy Anderson, Jim Bark, EE Wright , the horse country, Charlebois spring.

Chapter 11. 12 pgs. Silverlock and Malm. Apache Jack, George Scholey, Black Mt. Apaches bury the mine. Blind squaw story.

Chapter 12. 13 pgs. Various Indian stories about the mine. Apache Jack, Watsky, Forbac, JD Walker, Del-Shay, Pahsaum, Emerson, Henry.

Chapter 13. 12 pgs. Peralta land grant fraud. Rables-Gonzales story. More Indian stories and accounts. The Don’s Club of Phoenix.

Chapter 14. 8 pgs. Entirely about the James Cravey disappearance and Sheriff Lynn Early.

Forgot to add to the above post:

In the original publication, Sims Ely credited some of the people who helped him compile information for the book. It is a very short list. One thing I noticed while reading the book is Ely had a peculiar habit of making a historical statement in one chapter, and crediting the source of the statements in a later chapter. He did that on three occasions that I caught but only after having read the book several times over.

Matthew

Matthew,

If Julia was at the location on the South side of Washington Street either as the lease holder or just working there, that explains why Sims Ely was so detailed in describing that stores exact location. I am also curious why so many dutch book authors have used Frank Alkire. It seems the Alkire gave a lot of interveiws to authors and he must have been a good source for knowlege about Waltz and the Dutchman mine. Do you think Alkire was the source for Sims Ely in his book and for the Washington street quotation or someone else?
thanks,
Steven

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:33 pm

All:

It appears the Library of Congress web site is back on line, so here are the three links I'm on the hook for:


The Dorris Bros kitchen being damaged from the February 1891 rains (see column 6):

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-1/



George Loring rebuilding the damaged part of the Dorris fruit store (see column 1):

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-4/



The shootout on Washington Street near the Phillips & Leggat Fruit store (see columns 1 and 2 for entire story, and near the end of column 2 for the excerpt I quoted):

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-1/



Another article that you might want to read about the shooting on Washington Street, concerns the August 1891 trial of one of the shooters (two months after the shooting). There is a great deal of witness testimony from the trial, including that of WH Leggat, one of the proprietors of the Phillips and Leggat store, who was in his store the morning of the shooting. He had stepped out into the street right after one of the shooters had just had bought some candy in his store, and he was witness to some of the events (see columns 5 and 6):

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-1/


Larry

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:45 pm

Correction - the trial was less than a month after the shooting.

Quick justice!

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:19 pm

Steven Trost,

in your last post you wrote:

"Matthew,

If Julia was at the location on the South side of Washington Street either as the lease holder or just working there, that explains why Sims Ely was so detailed in describing that stores exact location. I am also curious why so many dutch book authors have used Frank Alkire. It seems the Alkire gave a lot of interveiws to authors and he must have been a good source for knowlege about Waltz and the Dutchman mine. Do you think Alkire was the source for Sims Ely in his book and for the Washington street quotation or someone else?
thanks,
Steven

Yes, it's clear the earlier dutchman book authors relied heavily on Frank Alkire. Higham credits him heavily for his information, R. Joseph Allen writes he personally interviewed Frank Alkire. John Mitchell, Storm, Barnard, Blair and others all mentioned him concerning the dutchman mine. Did Ely use Alkire for his source for Julia's location on the south side of Washington Street ? I cannot say for certain as he never named that source but I believe it may well have been. Alkire seemed to have been drawn to the dutchman story somehow, or, dutchman authors sought him out continuously. Since they sought him out it was for a reason, they just didn't pick his name out of the telephone book or throw a dart and it hit the name Alkire.

Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve anything they want, I believe there is more to the story and men like Frank Alkire knew that story. And Alkire was willing to tell it. That is why so many authors sought him out . As with all my posts, this is my personal opinion based on what I have been able to learn over the years from a variety of sources, and not just what I could find and download off the internet.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:23 pm

Hi Ed,

Good to "see" you. Haven't had much time to do anything with stones or rocks - though, I am in the process of setting up a new "rock and photo" room. (a very slow process, I might add) :lol: Have to fit it into all the other things happening around here. (I seem to have a habit of making work for myself)

Mrs.O (Beth)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:26 pm

Ozarker,

I followed all directions - I just cannot see them for myself - I can see them in the "preview" mode, but not after I post it.

Can you all see the pics I've posted?

Mrs.O

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