Finding the Peralta Treasures

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babymick1
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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by babymick1 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:07 pm

deducer wrote:
Matthew Roberts wrote:Hello deducer,

I can't speak for Robert and why he rejected the H/P (Horse-Priest) stone. I'm not sure he totally rejected it, more that it was not needed as a piece of the puzzle as he interpreted it. Some people believe Tumlinson carved the Horse-Priest stone after he fond the other red sandstone maps. I don't know if he did or didn't.
If he did carve the HP stone it doesn't make it worthless or a fake or fraud as some have assumed. He very well could have carved it following some other map(s) or it could be a combination of all the other maps, or something entirely authentic and unique to it's own treasure. That is just my personal opinion on the subject.

Matthew
Or he may have carved additional details on it, to either mislead or to force fit it to a treasure legend of some sort.

That being said, I wonder how old the Peralta legend is, as well as the LDM story. Were these around and well known by the time Tumlinson drove by the Supes?
Deducer
The Peralta family and there holdings were well know in the southwest mostly in cali I believe, That's why the stones are called the Peralta Stones. There's really no facts that I know of that states they were even aware of the stones. I don't believe they were and here's why. Two kids grow up best friends and trouble makers. (me)
One finds god and takes off to Minneapolis MN and becomes a ordain priest, The other struggles but in the end straightens up and gets a hobby of treasure hunting.
On a trip back from the supers I stop to visit my friend and out of my bag drops the photo's of the Stones I carry, He picks them up and says what you doing with Jesuits symbols in your bag and went on to tell me what a lot of them meant. I asked him how do you know what they are. Its the first thing you study. in collage
to become a priest. He all so said the order disbanded and most of there beliefs were lost to the new Jesuits that are here to day. Interesting to be just a fluke, huh

But the Peralta's could have been part of the Jesuits order, But he never heard of them, so I don't think so.

Just my thoughts on it Babymick1

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by deducer » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:17 am

babymick1 wrote:
Deducer
The Peralta family and there holdings were well know in the southwest mostly in cali I believe, That's why the stones are called the Peralta Stones. There's really no facts that I know of that states they were even aware of the stones. I don't believe they were and here's why. Two kids grow up best friends and trouble makers. (me)
One finds god and takes off to Minneapolis MN and becomes a ordain priest, The other struggles but in the end straightens up and gets a hobby of treasure hunting.
On a trip back from the supers I stop to visit my friend and out of my bag drops the photo's of the Stones I carry, He picks them up and says what you doing with Jesuits symbols in your bag and went on to tell me what a lot of them meant. I asked him how do you know what they are. Its the first thing you study. in collage
to become a priest. He all so said the order disbanded and most of there beliefs were lost to the new Jesuits that are here to day. Interesting to be just a fluke, huh

But the Peralta's could have been part of the Jesuits order, But he never heard of them, so I don't think so.

Just my thoughts on it Babymick1
That's interesting.

Are you able to share what he told you about those Jesuit symbols and what they meant?

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:32 am

Hello, Robert K here. I appreciate the solid feedback and would like to respond to some points raised.
Deducer: The issue of calibrating the Rover UC was very important. Here is what I did, and it aligns with your expectation. Frank Casser at OKM is the POC engineering consultant I worked with. Two Apache Junction acquaintances you might know asked me to scan an expected location for a suspected Jesuit Treasure Trove originally found circa 85'. It had been lost and relocated. I asked for a blind test. They drew a map and silently watched me scan about a 60' by 80' zone. I produced the scan. Every item on the map appeared and at the correct dimensions. The only thing the Rover did not identify were the 15 skeletons in the chambers. It located all silver and gold content. The Rover also maps voids so it located the floor of the underground chambers. The chamber floor was exactly the expected depth. The back chamber sloped and I had recorded that slope as well. The front chamber includes a gun rack filled with muskets and the barrels showed up. I had gold, silver, steel and wood objects located underneath to a depth of 14 feet. Casser reviewed the data and confirmed it was a legitimate anomoly ( his word for man made objects and he only discriminates between ferrous and non-ferrous).

To assure the depth calibration I used one entitled opportunity. I went to the cache site containing individual bars and chose one spot above a single bar to place the latrine. We would be in camp a week and we needed to have low impact so we had a fire pit that needed a latrine. When that hole was made we stopped at a reasonable depth that kept predators from digging stuff up; and a narrow hole. I scanned before and after the hole was dug. The bar was exactly the distance closer.

The reason for that depth test is that the OKM software that is used to measure length, width and depth needs to be set to a specific soil type. The Rhyolitic rock and soil at the massacre site requires one to use 'lightly mineralized'. Casser at OKM agreed the calibration process was excellent and we had very good data thereafter.

robert

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:45 am

Robert K again; Continuing
Point 2) cubfan64; not a good choice.
I entirely agree and that choice was my last choice. However the impression I get reading your post is that my actions might be attributed to using going public as a threat to get the permit. That wasn't the case at all. Let me clarify.

When I met Gary Hanna I told him as a member of Sigma Xi and an amateur scientist I use scientific methods as much as possible. One thing required is to provide peers all the data required to verify a result before allowing your claim too stand. Any claims made in science must be validated by the actions of anyone attempting to do the same thing. So I told Gary the book was already being written. The only question was whether he agreed to get some samples to take to a University like ASU or UofA to have their departments analyze it and my data. Then his permits could enable them to do the field work. My proposal was to use the same methods used for Kartchner Caverns which took a decade to go from discovery to public announcements. That was the plan going forward when he agreed to try to acquire a permit. I warned him that I was prepared to publish without that step if necessary and that I would give him up to one year too prepare to protect the site if we couldn't follow the plan.

The plan has always been to allow the professionals to take over. However everyone that requires permits from the NFS to support their careers declined. So did the Catholic Church, the Jesuits and most museums. I also failed to get the attention of the Az governor, Sen John McCain and president Obama. I did speak with the Governors office for New Mexico. Again, if the NFS says no, then they will wait and see what happens going this route.

So yup; it was my last choice. But I depend on several factors. First, the GPS coordinates have a built in error of some 25 feet by the US Government. That means nobody can take those coordinates and start blindly digging. They will probably try anyhow. So thats why I hoped Gary would act. Secondly many holes are 5' or 8' deep and contain few bars. I don't know why, thats how it is. Without spending money on an imaging metal detector that has the penetration and accuracy its a lost cause. If they are off 1 foot they missed again. Lastly there is the problem of welding. Seems if you stack gold bars for a long time, say over 60 years or so, they stick to one another like wet candy. Don't know about you but if they go looking for the big piles, odds are they need a torch.

Alas however I can do nothing to prevent pot holes. But I tried all other options, even as high as President Obama. No help anywhere. That means the system requires the voice of the public to step up to say they want the site protected from vandals. So I made that request and still do; Please voice your concern to Sen John McCain. he can have the site converted to a historical site, get protection funded and an archeological study performed. The problem is we are so low on his radar it won't happen if people don't call or email him.

Robert

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:57 am

Robert K again: continuiing;

Somehiker (Wayne) ; I do not disregard the H/P stone and perhaps I've not been clear. Let me embellish. I have a copy of an article written by Azmula and others that reviews interviews with the Tumlinson family. They firmly state they watched him carve the white stone in their front yard over a summer and he made it from scraps of paper they never got to look at. Seems its a fact he carved it; so what?

Looking at my book analysis of the Priests Stone side I observed a hidden heart in the number eight. That told me the scraps of paper he used were probably rubbings of a broken tablet stone. Question is; why bother too make the stone copy? Well obviously he hadn't solved the two red sandstone block Post Road map. He hoped by making one copy of the broken tablet clues would emerge. Since he carved it he knew the secret heart was there. I don't however recall him ever commenting on it. The material I've seen puts the area of interest closer to where the original stones and latin heart were found, at the Florence Junction area. Anyhow; he did carve it from legitimate material, in my opinion.

So when working on the Stone Maps I indeed analyzed both sides of the white stone as legitimate maps. They were regarded as copies just like the latin heart copy from the SMHS museum. In volume 1 I show how I managed to identify mines marked on the horse map. However I suspect there are several clues on the Priests Stone side that are relevant. The peaked hat is the geometric angle of tilt the Latin Heart takes on its axis. The impression I got was that the Priests stone and messages were trying too tell one how to assemble the entire collage. The angle of the peak from north is the axis of the heart. The Latin Heart has a phrase ' look northwest' and at that location this angle is laid out in a line of stones on that axis. Apparently one was to take the latin heart to the look northwest location and align it in order to be able to locate where caches were placed. At least that's my theory. Works for me anyhow.

So I don't think I disregard the H/P stone; I simply think its a copy. I consider the Horse map to be on the Salt and mapping land north and south of the river. I think that the Priests Stone side contains hidden symbols required to accurately place where the Latin Heart is used.

Don't forget the last clue. Once on the site your looking for handmade hearts placed in circles of stones; thats the end of the cryptic meaning about search the heart.

Robert

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:03 am

Robert K again: last comment; Age of the Peralta Legend

Deducer; yes the Peralta legends existed well before WW2. However there is a lot of speculation about its relationship to the LDM as having been started for publicity by a newspaper owner around WW1. Regardless, there is an additional twist.

The oldest account I know of was recorded in a journal in 1849 by Cozzens. Inis he relates how gold bullion lost by Mexicans from New Mexico was going to be recovered and the Mexicans sent two brothers to Louisiana to get men. They returned with over one hundred men and passed through Texas Commanche country en route and were never heard from again. The story seems extremely similar to the Peralta legend. One might suspect we actually have three massacres in the Peraltas but that the one by Commanches didn't make the news. One wonders what stories the Peraltas would have to say before going back in during the Civil War.

Barry Storms book ; Thunder Gods Gold, was my first and oldest reference prior to Cozzens; see my bibliography.

Robert K

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:12 am

Babymick1
Jesuits
The treasure I scanned to calibrate the Rover UC is in a mine that has 1711 carved over the exit of the room per the eyewitness. Furthermore the back room is filled with oil paintings. Aside from bullion it contains much church property. One body sitting at a table is slumped over a really big book like a bible. There is a baptismal basin of silver filled with gems and coins per the eyewitness. Hopefully one day this person will step forward. To locate the site on the route in he stopped me many times. Each time he showed me Jesuit marks carved into saguaros. These are in the book too. He pointed out that the Jesuit cross was in fact the shape of one of the mined chambers he had entered, but it was empty. Only time will tell truth from fiction. But I can state the saguaros that had Jesuit marks were dying of old age. Most were over 16 feet tall. The marks were about belt high.

So when I did my field work at the massacre site I found more marked saguaro but I suspect many were marked later by Cristobal Peralta in 1924. But I wondered about this: the Stone Cross speaks of a mountain that is named after a mountainous area on the Austrian border. Kino and many other Jesuits were Austrian. Consider also that the Latin Heart is LATIN and thats a common language among the Jesuits since they all have different native tongues.

Personally I allow my imagination tell me that the Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe hidden by the Peraltas was under the management of the Jesuits. But without archeological data; its all worthless opinion.

Robert K

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by cubfan64 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Robert K - first of all, let me thank you profusely for the well stated responses to some of our questions, comments and thoughts. It's VERY easy on this end of the keyboard to play "Monday morning quarterback" and also to question every little detail, and it would also be easy on your end of the keyboard to be offended by some of our questions even though they weren't meant to offend - thank you for taking them in the light they were meant.

Your calibration and test of the OKM Rover UC is pretty much what I would want to see as proof for a potential customer/user. The only thing I would have wanted to actually see if I were in your position, would have been all the actual items underground. If that option was not available, what you did was very much the 2nd best alternative, especially if you take the word of the folks who originally located the items in '85. I'm with you in that I hope one day this person comes forward, or at the very least, the site and items located within are documented, recorded and the story shared publicly. I suppose the odds of that happening are slim here in the United States, but one can hope.

I apologize if you thought I was implying you were in any way threatening public exposure in order to gain a permit. I realized that was would have been a possibility, but didn't mean to imply that as it wouldn't have been fair of me to accuse you of anything without knowing you. Really all I was doing was commenting that it had to have been a difficult choice, and that GPS coordinates may have been a step beyond what I would have done is all.

You make a good case that even with the GPS coordinates, it would still require a good bit of work to find or exploit any of the locations you pointed out. I also know that there are public people (Site Stewards for lack of a better term) who volunteer to watch over at least some suspected archaeological and other historically important sites in and around the Superstitions. It would certainly be risky to attempt to exploit any location not knowing who or when someone could be watching you, especially in these days of high tech "gadgets" that can help remotely monitor areas. Not enough gold in the world to risk Federal Prison time imho.

My hat is off to you for all the work you and your wife did - I'm sure your results were rewarding despite not getting to carry through on that last step of actual digging up and seeing the evidence. As an aside, I've often thought that the way they handle these things in the UK really promotes discovering and sharing history much more so than here in the US.

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by deducer » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:49 pm

Robert,

Thank you for participating in what I hope will continue to be a stimulating discussion.

Two questions:

1) I could not find a heart inside the 8 on the priest side of the stone.. would you mind going into detail on that a little more?

2) I also could not find a mountain in or near Austria that was named "Someo." Could you elaborate on that please?

Also, not to belabor a minor point, but Kino was born in the village of Segno, Italy (although it is near the Austrian border).

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Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:30 pm

Hello again

I may have misspoke as my geography isn't that great (ha) Austria and Switzerland...

To find Someo goto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Someo
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