Finding the Peralta Treasures

Moderator: Jim_b

User avatar
Robert_K
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:53 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:53 pm

My first impression is that this is a Mexican pit mine. There is a hexagonal shaft in it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sgtfda
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:57 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: W Mesa

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Sgtfda » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:50 am

Robert the Mexicans did not file claims and mark their mines in that way. Rock monuments of that type are from prospectors who came later. Look inside you may find some old claim notices. Those guys dug up that area over the years. For the most part they would not have missed a old mine. They dug up those too!

User avatar
Robert_K
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:53 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:36 am

Hi

What I'm attempting to have everyone share is photographic evidence of Mexican miners. I have not specified it is by the Peraltas. In fact I've asked if we know how many Mexican mining teams have been in the Superstitions.

I also agree that we don't know the age of many of the mines and in most cases they are from the period after the Peraltas.

The marker example I've provided is from the mine containing bullion. If I accept your opinion, then I have to wonder who would put the marker on top of a pile of buried bullion at a mine covered in two feet of earth and logs then and then leave the bullion, or not mine the gold? The fact the mine is covered and has a gold vein, filled with bullion, and on the Latin Heart map implies (for the moment and sake of argument) that the marker was put there by Mexican Miners and perhaps someone on the Peralta staff.I suspect this is one that the old timers you refer to, missed. But that's just my opinion and its not worth more than yours.

This example also appears at the other Latin Heart and Stone Cross mapped mines and caves, and in particular the cave that is connected to the mine that has a Heart carved into the mountain side.

In my humble opinion, even if people used the same marker later, even today, the example provided was by the Peralta crew because like the Heart symbol, I suspect it was in use before most people think it was.

Where else have you seen these ?
Can you provide your example of what Waltz said is a "FelsenSpitze" as a claim marker ? I'd like to see a photo if possible.

As for the pit mine, as I've said, a Mexican mining crew could work a claim for an American. I have no way of proving a mine is from the Peraltas unless its on their maps and the one posted isn't. It indeed could be from the 1900's for example. As I said, I'm looking for our conversation to provide the general reader photos of what we might agree are examples of Mexican mining activity, regardless of the age.

My examples are drawn from the Library of Congress photo collection and I've sought out representatives within the Superstitions. Many of the examples photographed in the 1800s were taken in South America, for example. Others were in northern Sonora. But I haven't seen examples from our wilderness area.
Can you share some ?

Can we put our resources together to show people what a community might agree is from Mexican Miners ( of any age ?).
:)

Robert


rlk

Sgtfda
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:57 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: W Mesa

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Sgtfda » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:33 pm

Jesse wrote a book on the mine they excavated and proved was a Mexican mine. The mine in goldfield also had some evidence. I hope your spot is filled with gold bars. I have doubts. If the unit you use was military grade perhaps. The stuff available to the public at this point is just not in the same league. In the end someone will go and dig a big hole to find out. Be careful with the Latin heart. There is a good chance it's not as old as you think. Then again I heard a rumor and have a suspect. However the case is not ready for court.

User avatar
Robert_K
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:53 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Robert_K » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:11 pm

Thank you for your feedback.

I agree that nothing is settled until such time as material is excavated and analyzed. That's why getting it done is my highest priority and why I published; because I agree. What I have is a hypothesis. That said it must be stated in an absolute way and went public to 'dare' someone to prove me wrong. Its the only way to do science. Take a position if you believe your right, and let folks take swings at it. Alas we no longer have the true Latin Heart, only copies.
In my opinion the only satisfactory evidence will come by site excavation. My efforts are made to prove it would be worthwhile.

The Rover UC OKM is the military grade unit supplied around the world for the detection of plastic mines not detectable using standard metal detectors. Its used by professional archeologists to map extremely large settlements, especially in Egypt. You can image machinery through a house wall, trace wiring etc. Its more or less like an X-Ray machine.

That said I wanted to insure operator error and or damage had not degraded my units performance. As a Raytheon missile systems engineer of 24 years experience I have a long history of taking assets into the field to test them, calibrate them and assess the assets performance.

When I did scans I followed exact instructions by the devices engineer Frank Casser of OKM. He analyzed the data of the calibration location that had confirmed gold bullion at a depth of 14 to 9 feet depth. Frank confirmed the calibration site contained 'anomolies' consistent with bullion and nonferrous material, exactly the size and depths I measured. Also the exact dimensions given by the eyewitness having me do the blind test.

After that when at the Latin Heart site I calibrated exactly over an individual bar. I dug a latrine above to a depth of 2 feet. I remeasured the bar. It was exactly the same and two feet closer. I passed this data to Frank as well. He confirmed the calibration at the Latin Heart site was excellent.

I do not know how to convince someone without the background to appreciate the use of sophisticated imaging RF technology. You can either accept my experience, 3 degrees, patents and career history as an indication of the quality of my expert opinion for yourself.

What I recommend is that someone buy one and try it for themselves. Then go to the site and determine what they see for themselves. My opinion is merely the basis for that recommendation.

If some key people were to join together and get a unit, do that, and render an opinion we'd have more than one lonely voice in the dark. That's what the scientific method is about.

Until excavation brings material in light I entirely agree with any suspicion you may raise. But realize I published because I performed a professional caliber of work with the top of the line tool I could legally obtain and afford.

Do you think I have enough evidence to warrant having a professional excavation for the analysis of whats buried ? If yes, then I've achieved my goal and would hope you'd join me in voicing that request to politicians. I think that is the only way you'll get sufficient answers to the points raised.

With that I now switch to the mode of answering specific questions.

I wish you huge success in your ventures. Especially in raising the issues you raise.

Robert

tjoslin53
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:35 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by tjoslin53 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:18 am

Hello Robert K., I have been a huge follower of everything Peralta/Dutchman and was reading one of your past post (Article). You showed an overlay of the Peralta Stones over the region with several marked areas. In these overlays you marked (Holes), which I assume are shafts, pits, tunnels, etc. My question is do you have the GPS locations of these site and others on the overlay to share. A few of the spots I know but some others not so much and would like to check them out. Any help would be great.

tjoslin53

Curious_George
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:27 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Curious_George » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:53 am

Robert,

I read with great interest your posts on finding the Peralta Treasures.

While previously not a believer in the PSMs, I must say your scientific approach to information collection, testing, data analysis and field work on the ground is VERY, VERY impressive.

With so many folks connected with the Peralta treasure and the LDM who seem to believe that thinking something is true makes it true in reality, it is enormously refreshing to encounter a rational, intelligent
FAR more objective person such as yourself.

The area you focus on has long been an interest of mine, since I started reading about the LDM in Dr. Glover's books-- there have simply been too many artifacts, locations of interest and experiences in the Marsh Valley area for it NOT to be significant.

I am also very intrigued with Wholee Bacon's comment that one of his Apache ranch hands told him that some of the Peralta contingent escaped from the Massacre, and brought mules up Tortilla Mtn that, when they came down, seemed to be carrying full ore sacks.

I wonder if Tortilla Mtn may have been used as a staging area to prep for the trek home.

Is there any place I can buy your books at a reasonable price? It seems they are being sold at collector's edition prices on Amazon.

Regards,

George

Curious_George
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:27 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by Curious_George » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:10 am

I would have preferred the recently filmed History channel 6 part series on the "Curse of the Superstition Mountains" to have spent time & funds on verifying or disproving Mr Kesserling's data & interpretations, than on the "odd bunch" they did.

Last Sunday's show was to me a microcosm of why the LDM/ Peralta mine(s) have not been "found." With Mr. Kesserling's theory, maybe it HAS been.

Overly excitable searchers combined with a rational, experienced & grizzled leader attempting to keep his team on task/target, folks believing that something they heard/read or saw is significant simply because they think it is; add to this odd mix the fact that there was a major earthquake in the Supes in the 1800's after Waltz's death and that some have admitted deliberately destroying potentially highly valuable landmarks, and it's a wonder that someone like Robert could come along and still find a complete set of markers that match the PSM.

Just my 2 cents.

George

User avatar
skyhawk
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by skyhawk » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:44 pm

This is a request for some follow-up, investigative work to be done regarding a site pin-pointed by Mr. Kesselring.

On the Summary Page (Part 5 of the five-part series), which is found here,

http://www.desertusa.com/lost-dutchman/ ... gold5.html

Mr. Kesselring writes:

"Jacob described how the mine was high above facing the west. He said that the Mexicans were mining a shaft not easily found in very rough country and that they were in the process of building a stone house at the site. We found a site that matches all this and more. The mouth of Deering Canyon is not far from Peters Trail on the Malapais just southwest of Pistol Canyon. As you descend you pass a cave, then you pass the house foundation. To reach the mine you must go back towards the house and return along the cliff wall, just as he wrote in his letter. This is a switchback. Following the switchback allows you to climb up to the wall of a sheer cliff along which there is a mine hidden by growth. As Jacob said, he would have had to show you the mine location and you would not find it easily. He had also said you could look down upon it but not get down to it; that you had to enter the canyon as described."

Mr. Kesselring provides coordinates for the above-mentioned site. Those coordinates are:

33°28'54.53" N, 111°22'0.46" W, or 33°28.909' N, 111°22.008' W

He also provides an image of the site, which appears to be a Google Earth image. I have outlined Mr. Kesselring's site with a red ellipse, seen below:

http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=13_anomaly.jpg

Mr. Kesselring does not indicate if this site was visited as part of his on-the-ground search, nor does he provide any additional, close-up photos of it, or of the stone house.

I took Mr. Kesselring's co-ordinates for the site and plotted its location on the Weaver's Needle topographic map, which I downloaded from the Superstition Search-and-Rescue website. The topo map is found here:

http://www.superstition-sar.org/downloa ... needle.pdf

The position I plotted for the site's location (black dot) is shown below:

http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=13_wide.jpg

http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=13_narrow.jpg

What I would like to see are on-the-ground photos of this site (excavation), as well as, some photos of the canyon wall and ledge directly opposite this site. Exterior and interior photos of the excavation should be obtained. If a stone house foundation is found, photos should be taken of it.

Whoever undertakes an exploratory trip to this site should be aware that it is in close proximity to Robert Simpson Jacob's activities in the Superstition Mountains. According to Tom Kollenborn, who was an eye-witness:

"His main camp was located in Squaw Box Canyon just off La Barge Canyon below Marsh Flats. He used this camp for many years between 1966- 1974. After 1974 he moved his camp to the top of Peter’s Mesa just above his camp in Squaw Box Canyon.

"I looked at some of the holes he had his men dig. The holes were randomly dug into rock that had no mineral value at all. Most of the rock in this area was volcanic ash or basalt. One of the most interesting things about this Peter’s Mesa Camp was the fact Jake built a trail from down in Squaw Box Canyon up the side of Peter’s Mesa to his upper camp site." (Tom Kollenborn Chronicles, "'Crazy' Jake's Camp", December 28, 2009)

Due to such terrain-modifying activities, I am not going to say here that Mr. Kesselring's site is an iron-clad candidate for the Lost Dutchman Mine. I would only say that the site is worthy of closer inspection, in an effort to determine the approximate time period when it was excavated.

Also, I'd like to point out that when someone reads P. C. Bicknell's words, "across the canyon 200 feet", in reference to Waltz's stone house shelter across from the mine, "200 feet" could have been line-of-sight distance, and not necessarily the best way to get from point A to point B. Refer to Mr. Kesselring's site that I plotted on the map and it can be seen that directly across the canyon to the opposite ledge is about 200 feet line-of-sight, but maintaining the same elevation while walking to the opposite side of the canyon would be more like 200 yards; the path of travel would resemble the shape of an rounded V.

I am hopeful that someone will be motivated to make the trip to the site, measure the dimensions of the excavation, bring back a comprehensive set of photographs, and write down some notes. The story will capture everyone's attention, I'm sure. And we don't need more Google Earth photos, or conjectures and hypotheses; all we need are facts and on-the-ground, photographic evidence.

Raymond

P. S. My embedded image links to ImageTitan apparently don't work here, which is why they are provided here as clickable links. I don't use PhotoBucket for free image hosting.

User avatar
skyhawk
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Finding the Peralta Treasures

Post by skyhawk » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:57 am

I downloaded "Reading Peralta Stones", volumes 1 and 2, from Google Books. The links for the volumes are:

https://books.google.com/books?id=EzFSAgAAQBAJ

https://books.google.com/books?id=EFVSAgAAQBAJ

Anyone who does not know how to download entire books from Google Books can simply do a Google search with the words, "how to download google books", and numerous tutorials will be found.

I do not use Microsoft Windows. I use a Linux operating system, so I use pysheng to download books from Google. Be prepared to find some pages missing from the downloads, regardless of the operating system you are running; the missing pages seem to be due to errors on Google's part. Fortunately, I have most of the pages for the above-mentioned books.

Raymond

Post Reply