The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by Marius » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:35 am

RG , the Mr " non-treasure hunter " who are looking in the fields just to return the artifacts to the SoJ . He believes how the moral purpose would excuses him for a "treasure hunter " title .
But he use the Soj only to promote his work , giving more mistery and suspense to the Travis treasure hunting saga . He knows how he wiil find nothing in the fields ( if he ever will go ) and has no evidence Travis ever found a treasure , but he continuing chewing the Travis - Soj - treasure caramela just to mislead and manipulate the folks who are not so documentated in the Travis - stone maps history .

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:33 pm

Matthew Roberts wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:46 am
deducer,

Here is the post I wrote just before RMG decided to attack me and the Superstition Mountain Historical Museum and their annual Journal.

I do not know what caused RMG to go off like that or go after me.
The article I wrote for the upcoming 2017 Journal is not my story it is Clarence Mitchell's story as he told it.
The SMHS Journal article in no way attacks anything RMG and his associates are trying to say and do.
Like it or not Mitchell was an intimate part of the Tumlinson Stone Map story and he has a right to have his views and involvement in the Tumlinson and the Stone Maps told every bit as much as RMG and his associates have the right to tell their story.

Mitchell never attacked Travis Tumlinson or any of the Tumlinson family in any way shape or form.
RMG and some in the Tumlinson family have made it their priority to trash Mitchell's reputation, call him a liar, crook and con man and degrade anyone who ever had anything to do with Mitchell. I guess I am lumped into that category because I was asked to write Mitchell's story for the SMHS Journal.

The ironic thing about RMG and his outrage against Mitchell is members of the Tumlinson family (which includes the Leaseman and Salles) is members of the family have thanked me for writing about their involvement in the Superstition Mountains search and mentioning them by name. One thing I learned from writing the article is the Tumlinson/Leaseman/Salles are not all on the same page with this new story being worked up by RMG.

RMG has the right to tell his story any way he likes and trash whoever he wants along the way but he is making a mistake. He wants to control the Stone Map story but has never faced the fact that the Tumlinson family was not the only people who were involved with that story. His reaction to that fact is to trash everyone and everything that does not involve his story.

My post was a reply to a question by Marius:


Marius,

I wrote an article for the Superstition Mountain Historical Society 2017 Journal about Clarence Mitchell and his involvement with the Stone Maps. That 2017 Journal will be out sometime in October or November this fall.

Because of the belief by some, Mitchell included, that the Stone Maps may have been dealing with Jesuit mines, treasure and caches in the Superstition Mountains I had occasion to contact the Jesuit order to get their input and opinion for the article.

It was no easy task getting to talk to the right people. When I first contacted the order a little over a year ago I was finally put in touch with the office of the Provincial Superior of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States.

Since Arizona has no office I was directed to the Los Gatos, California office which directs all affairs and business for Arizona and California. Fr. Michael Weiler is the Provincial Superior at Los Gatos and his office and staff were most helpful in answering my inquiries. The Los Gatos office also directs the Catholic Diocese Arizona History Center at Tucson.

As of July 1st of this year the Jesuit Order underwent a much anticipated reorganization. The office of Jesuits West has now taken over the Arizona order and consolidated it with 9 other western states. Jesuits West also is the administrator for the Kino Border Initiative at Nogales, Arizona and Sonora, Mexico. The Jesuits West office is located in Portland, Oregon.

Fr. Scott Santarosa is the Provincial Superior at Jesuits West and his staff has been most patient and helpful. Fr. Alfred Naucke is the Provincial Secretary who is a wealth of information. The Jesuit order does not sponsor anyone or anything outside of their own stated goals and agendas. They are however open to those who might have questions and do their best to answer them openly and honestly.

Matthew

Matthew,

I think it's pretty obvious what caused Ryan so much concern. It was his statements of being, somehow, connected with the Jesuit Order in his endeavors. He suddenly realized that there are many of us out here with solid connections to Jesuits. Any claims he made in that regard could be easily checked out. The only option he was left with, was to delete the entire history of the thread.

Nice job!

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by somehiker » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:27 pm

As one of the items on his "action list", he claimed to have that covered.....
33) Warn Jesuits of calls from nosey treasure hunters. Agreements to be silent.


But then again, his list contained quite a few "pie in the sky" entries IMHO.
I found these to be amusing as well:
41) Work with upper end Arizona politicians.
42) Secure sites with fences,barbed wire - using Jesuit / Vatican influence to ensure all information is kept non-public.
I kinda thought those claims ranked right up there with the suggestion that, despite laws against digging for treasure, artifacts etc. within National Forest and especially Wilderness areas, it would be perfectly legal for the Jesuits to do so, because.....
The SoJ just wants their stuff back.
Last edited by somehiker on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:37 pm

I haven't been following this "drama" for quite awhile now but popped back on to contact roc2rol from the lapidary/rockhounding section and checked out the posts.

I see Ryan only heeded my "you should just stop posting stuff online" recommendation for a short time. I never saw the sense to his trying to start discussions online when he was unwilling or unable by choice to share more than a few tidbits here and there. It was more than a little obvious it would inevitably end the way it did. The only reasonable reason I could come up with for his continuing was as a way to tease information as a promotional means.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by nobody » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:04 am

Is it possible that the reason someone got hostile about the Jesuit is because he's not a real Jesuit and someone is going to get screwed.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by somehiker » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:08 am

nobody wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:04 am
Is it possible that the reason someone got hostile about the Jesuit is because he's not a real Jesuit and someone is going to get screwed.
If what you mean nobody, is could RG's claims of direct Jesuit and Vatican involvement in his "production" be true ? , I'd have to say I seriously doubt it.
As Matthew and Joe and others have mentioned, it's not all that difficult to speak with any Jesuit who could be just a phone call away. Even easier for me, since there is a major Loyola facility less than a mile from where I work five days a week. And if you should happen to connect with one who is familiar with the order's history in the Southwest, the conversation might go just about anywhere. But to have any ordained Jesuit Father and especially the Vatican co-operate in the ways that Ryan has told us they have, is a stretch IMO.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by Matthew Roberts » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:50 am

cactusjumper, somehiker, nobody,

Anyone who thinks contacting the Jesuit order and getting someone to discuss the subject of Jesuit treasure is easy, they have an eye opening experience ahead of them.

My only objective in contacting the Jesuits was in relation to the Clarence Mitchell article I was writing. Once I finally got a reply I never mentioned RMG or anything he might be doing. The only mention of the Tumlinson's I ever made was when I said Clarence Mitchell received his Stone Maps from a man named Travis Tumlinson. That was it. The conversation from that point focused on Mitchell and the Stone Maps themselves and if there was any possibility they might be Jesuit inspired. I never mentioned anyone else and they never mentioned anyone else to me.

Not knowing where to start, my first contact was with the office of the Superior General at the Curia Generalizia at, 00193 Roma, Italia. Telephone +39-06-689-771. They simply directed me to the office of the Provincial Superior of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States, (the California office at Los Gatos, California). The Telephone is (408) 884-1600 and the Provincial Superior is Fr. Michael Weiler. This office also directed the History Center at Tucson.

Today, as of July 1, 2017, The newly formed office of Jesuits West at Portland, Oregon has consolidated 10 Western States in it's administration. Arizona and California are now under the direction of Jesuits West.

What I learned is the Jesuit order knows their own history very well. They are no grey areas to their history in the American Southwest. Their focus is not on mines or treasure or stories of Jesuit maps and mining. Jesuits serve as teachers, campus ministers, and administrators at universities, high schools, and Nativity middle schools. They also serve as parish ministers, chaplains, and spiritual directors. In all Jesuit ministries and work, they strive to keep alive the tradition and prayerful discernment established by St. Ignatius and do all things for the greater glory of God.

That is it, that is what Jesuits do, are focused on and what they give all their energy toward. Jesuit treasure stories are not what they do or care to be involved in.

The Jesuit order is however always happy to talk with interested persons and openly and honestly answer any questions concerning the orders goals or history. They do not endorse, sponsor or involve themselves with treasure hunting or historical possibilities. It's just not what they do.

Matthew

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by deducer » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:04 am

Ryan has some very tall claims to back up. It'll be interesting to see what this "project" of his turns out to be if it ever sees the light of day. 2018 is fast approaching.
church.jpg
Should be pretty easy for anyone to contact the Jesuits and verify if they have any sort of working relationship with Ryan.
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Last edited by deducer on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by nobody » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:33 am

Somehiker,
Like I said on the other forum, I'm not very good at these discussions. What's in my mind doesn't come out on my posts properly. You and others say it better than I can. I now have my doubts about a real Jesuit getting involved unless he's from the mail room. I hope the show doesn't turn out to be like the Legends of the Superstition Mountains. Fake black hand or fake gold crosses.

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Re: The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

Post by Matthew Roberts » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:43 am

I think anyone who ever had the opportunity to meet and talk with Father Charles Polzer SJ was very fortunate in that the man was probably the most notable and literate historian of the Jesuit order in Arizona and the Southwest.
Fr. Polzer never turned away anyone who inquired about the history of Jesuit Arizona no matter how absurd the topic. He was polite and accomodating to a fault. A true gentleman and the very essence of what it meant to be a Jesuit scholar.

Charles Polzer was a founder of the Southwest Mission Research Center, which is a non-profit Arizona corporation that does research and publishes articles on Spanish colonial history and anthropology. At the research center, Fr. Polzer had graduate students compile archives from Spain and the Southwest. Polzer also started a computerized guide to several collections of Spanish colonial documents. Fr. Polzer made a push for the Roman Catholic Church to declare Fr. Francisco Eusebio Kino as a saint. Kino was a late 17th-century missionary for Spain perhaps best known for choosing the site of San Xavier Mission.

When he was alive Fr. Polzer was one of the most knowledgeable people on Jesuit mission history in the Americas and followed the Franciscan order of missions into California. In conversation with Fr. Polzer if you knew enough to talk briefly and listen a great deal you came away with a wealth of knowledge about the Jesuits in Mexico and early Arizona.

Fr. Polzer died in November 2003 here at Los Gatos in Southern California. Today, the man who rivals Fr. Polzers knowledge of Jesuit southwest history oddly enough works with the Jesuit mission just east of downtown Los Angeles known as HomeBoy Industries, a facility dedicated to the poor and turning around the lives of gang members in the LA inner cities. I have had the good fortune to speak with both Fr. Polzer and my friend at the mission but even though both these men were experts on the Jesuit Southwest, neither would have sponsored or endorsed someone in a Jesuit Treasure association. It's just simply not what the Jesuits do or care to do.

Matthew

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