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cubfan64
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Re: Here is what happened

Post by cubfan64 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:52 pm

The only one that sticks in my head right now is Bill Hidden. I don't think any other names were given - it was just stated that he was known to use alias's (up to 7 I think is what was written?). The Bill Hidden one sticks in my head because I believe Jim Hatt is on record stating that Bill Hidden had destroyed the Latin Heart but I don't think anyone ever really knew who Bill Hidden was?

I don't know how much credence to give it, but someone on TNet the other day also asked Lynda something along the lines of "do you know who Charlie Miller really is?," but then came on and said he wasn't at liberty to say which could just be part of some "game," but it got me to thinking when I saw the stuff about the alias's.

It's probably not a big deal and I'm not asking for any specific names or anything, just wondering if anything came up suggesting that Charlie Miller may have gone by other names.

Carry on :)

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:03 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:52 pm
The only one that sticks in my head right now is Bill Hidden. I don't think any other names were given - it was just stated that he was known to use alias's (up to 7 I think is what was written?). The Bill Hidden one sticks in my head because I believe Jim Hatt is on record stating that Bill Hidden had destroyed the Latin Heart but I don't think anyone ever really knew who Bill Hidden was?

I don't know how much credence to give it, but someone on TNet the other day also asked Lynda something along the lines of "do you know who Charlie Miller really is?," but then came on and said he wasn't at liberty to say which could just be part of some "game," but it got me to thinking when I saw the stuff about the alias's.

It's probably not a big deal and I'm not asking for any specific names or anything, just wondering if anything came up suggesting that Charlie Miller may have gone by other names.

Carry on :)

In the manuscript, he is always referred to as Charlie (sometimes Charley) Miller. The other key players were posted previously, different people.

I have also heard of the name Bill Hidden - and I've had a few people tell me it relates back to the Kollenborn's, but take that with a grain of salt. You know the way people love to talk around this town!

Here are some names that are in Travis' "phone book"

Herbert Oliver
Ivan Heinen
Dr. Davis
Jon W Drapper
Cooper Kenningston
Walter Terrence
Clyde Nashua
J.P. Ruppel

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by cubfan64 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm

Thanks for checking Ryan - it was just something stuck in my head. I checked on Bill Hidden again and according to Hatt, it was Al Reser who passed Bill Hidden's name along as the person who was a friend of Charlie Miller and who had destroyed the Latin Heart. I knew Jim a little bit and I doubt very many people trusted him so it wouldn't surprise me to find out that either Hidden was an alias for Charlie Miller or Al just made up the name out of thin air.

One of the most difficult things I've run across when trying to do research on LDM things is that nobody trusted anyone, so false stories were started and told to someone to see if that story made the rounds which would let the originator know that the person he told wasn't trustworthy, etc... Before you know it, some of those stories get passed around enough that they become "fact." Then you have people who just make up complete stories either for the fun of it, or to throw others off their trail or point them in some other direction.

It's no wonder treasure stories quickly become convoluted and mostly impossible to really know what the real facts are.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Next I want to discuss The Barn Map and The Ground Map.

Driving out to Stockdale and meeting with the family wasn’t really what I had expected. I suppose in my head I thought they would be full on treasure hunters – stories galore – tons of photos and everything else that one could possibly dream up.

Instead, the basis of our conversation was about cattle. Texans and their cattle, it’s a big deal! Before ever seeing the manuscript, I was taken on a full tour of the ranch – taking a look at all the different structures – laughing a lot but also swatting away more bugs than I had seen in my life. It took a bit before we finally got back to one of the homes on the 400+ acre family property. It was the home of one of Travis’ hiking / treasure hunting buddies that had since passed. Being in there was surreal – being in Stockdale was surreal. A city full of so much legend – that seemingly not a single person even knew about. The city is small, very small.

Eventually the manuscript was placed on the table in front of me, but a warning of not to touch it or photograph it. There had been an issue with a well known forum member that had also been on a tour of the ranch that had photographed some of the rocks – that was told not to publish or put out anywhere, and he did. Over on Feldman’s old forum.

This was now seemingly a challenge I would have to overcome. Gaining the trust of this family – money aside – because someone else had not followed through with their word.

After the legal documents had been signed, money paid, I was finally able to handle and peruse the book in which I had driven over 1000 miles to see. It was old….it smelled old…the pages are onion paper…. I could see a lot of handwritten corrections – I could see a lot of photographs of stones that I didn’t immediately recognize from the museum. I saw maps – I saw decoding sheets – and a very randomly placed English to Spanish dictionary.

That night I read the manuscript over and over again. Its fairly long – but a bit tricky to read because there are a lot of spelling errors and, as previously mentioned, its written as one big paragraph. I was admittedly a little stunned at the very brief descriptions of the stone maps, but instead realized this book really didn’t have anything to do with stone maps like I had thought…but instead, exactly what the title said “A Challenge for Superstition Gold” Not “ A Challenge to Decode the Peralta Stone Maps!”

The stone maps in the book play a very small part. Instead, other maps are used. The maps that Charlie Miller found at Bradford’s place….the maps that got Adolph Ruth killed.

I would go back home to Scottsdale – and I would study the book over and over again. It was thrilling to have it. There were so many people I wanted to talk to about it. Ultimately, that person would be Lynda. Again, one of the most intelligent people I know. ( I am choosing to leave Frank out of this story, intentionally. His role was inconsquentional, at best )

I remember driving home from the gym when my phone rang. It was one of the family members.

‘Ryan! We found a map!

I couldn’t believe my ears. After I had left Stockdale, I suppose my interest and fairly large dollar amount paid for CFSG, it got them looking and remembering things from many many years ago. Its amazing how life works, really. I kept thinking, if these people only knew how many arguments their family name causes on the internet, how many people have died looking for the terminus of the stones, they would be shocked….and indeed they were and still are today.

To the family, they are always referred to as the rocks. Never as the Peralta Stones, never as maps, never as anything but just “the rocks” – because that is all they are to that family….rocks!

They witnessed Travis carve multiple copies. Nearly every family member from that vintage had a set sitting on their front porch! They were even on display, as a tourist attraction, at a family owned gas station. The emphasis that Clarence Mitchell placed on these rocks is drastically different from the emphasis the family – the people that really know the story. Yes, they know the rocks are in Life Magazine….they laugh and say “boy, did that Clarence Mitchell really pull a fast one” If you bring up the museum, then they really start laughing. They will tell you over and over again, those are the wrong size…. they are the wrong shape….and they do not have the same carvings.

In fact, little side story here - I had taken a brief trip back home from Stockdale. I had previously arranged a meeting with Gregory Davis. I showed him a few of the family’s maps, but insisted he didn’t take any photographs or record the conversation. Mr. Davis has held the manuscript in his hands and asked if it would be okay if I used his camera to take a photo of him holding it, I obliged. Mr. Davis always treated the information with respect. He also respected my wishes and the wishes of the family. He was a true gentleman.

After speaking with Mr. Davis, I wanted to introduce a few of the family to him via FaceTime. They all had a nice conversation. Then I took each family member, one by one, on a tour of the stone maps with Mr. Davis right by my side. Each of them were in shock….and kept saying over and over again to Mr. Davis “You’ve got it wrong, those are the wrong rocks!” Mr. Davis handled himself eloquently, but I feel fairly certain he didn’t like what the family had to say. Regardless, in this instance, Mr. Davis was exceptional.

I have to be honest, going back to “the rocks”. They were of such little importance. They were, to the family, nothing more than something Travis carved. He carved other things too, not just rocks. He was an incredibly talented artist on canvas / paper. He also carved a set of wooden guns, by hand, that are stunning. Also remember the chimney at the cabin.

But there is still this issue with the damn rocks! Are they really maps? Do they have any more value than the other things he drew and carved (like the wooden guns?). I was unsure. Because, like all of you – I had read Life Magazine…I had read Mitchell’s book. Where is the truth?

The truth is in The Ground Map. It is there that the entire picture is told. The “rocks” do indeed feature a portion of The Ground Map, just like Lynda and I have always said. I would estimate the rocks to hold about 20% of The Ground Map.

(posting this for now, am still sitting here typing)

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by deducer » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:58 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm
Thanks for checking Ryan - it was just something stuck in my head. I checked on Bill Hidden again and according to Hatt, it was Al Reser who passed Bill Hidden's name along as the person who was a friend of Charlie Miller and who had destroyed the Latin Heart. I knew Jim a little bit and I doubt very many people trusted him so it wouldn't surprise me to find out that either Hidden was an alias for Charlie Miller or Al just made up the name out of thin air.

One of the most difficult things I've run across when trying to do research on LDM things is that nobody trusted anyone, so false stories were started and told to someone to see if that story made the rounds which would let the originator know that the person he told wasn't trustworthy, etc... Before you know it, some of those stories get passed around enough that they become "fact." Then you have people who just make up complete stories either for the fun of it, or to throw others off their trail or point them in some other direction.

It's no wonder treasure stories quickly become convoluted and mostly impossible to really know what the real facts are.
Bill Hidden was a real person. Doyle Harnish partnered with him for a few years and it was he who told Jim Hatt the story of the Latin Heart, an interview that Jim had recorded on tape (have you listened to it?). Jim Hatt further mentions that what Harnish told him dovetailed nicely with what Al Reser told Jim about Bill Hidden. Hidden was the one who destroyed the LH, but not the one who found it.

It was furthermore, he, who said that when you fit the LH and the heart stone into the heart cavity on the trail stones, the combination of both fill the cavity precisely, whereas if you only put the heart stone in it, it fills about half of it- a fact ignored by those who consider the LH to be fraudulent or otherwise not related to the Stone Maps.

Kollenborn said that Miller was a close associate of Roy Bradford, and dates back to the early 1950's. He lived in Phoenix near 48th Street and Thomas Road, on either Brill or Culver Streets.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by auag » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:11 pm

Deducer,
did you know jim hatt or doyle harnish?

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:07 pm

The Ground Map is a name that I created. Its not a word Travis used. There are many maps that I would end up finding, and I had to come up with a name to distinguish each from the other. I have previously posted a photo of Travis, with his uncle Phill Leasman, with the map on the ground. Hence the name, “The Ground Map”. It means nothing more, or nothing less than that.

The map itself is fairly large. Its on hide. Its full of symbols relating to the Jesuit order – its got coordinates on it ( please reference Rudo Ensayo for Jesuit use of coordinates for important places ). Its beautiful – its magical – it’s the real deal.

One of the family members, as a child, would question to Phill Leasman

“Popo, what are you going to do if the rocks break?”

“Its okay boy, the real map is right here”
(pointing to The Ground Map)

The innocence of children is always astounding.

I immediately got back in the car and made another 2,000 mile round trip back to Stockdale. Seeing the map, recognizing portions of it from the museum stones, it admittedly gave me a sense of relief. I was, to be blunt, starting to think I had just wasted money on a book that I thought was about stone maps, and wasn’t…and that perhaps the entire thing was a hoax.

It wasn’t that the family was keeping a secret from me about the Ground Map….they were not. The family alive today is 3 to 4 generations removed. They live “normal” lives….they don’t treasure hunt, in fact of all the family I met, only one of them (as an adult) has ever been to Arizona at all, and that was for business.

After looking at the ground map – this got me on a hunt for anything else I could find. I asked for permission to start going thru anything and everything in the house I could. We found more maps, this time Julia Thomas maps, one of which was on hide. We found a very cryptic map that seemed to reference Weaver’s Needle.

Then we found something very interesting. A letter that Phill Leasman had written to attempt to get a claim. I have, and will post, a copy of this letter.

ImageEnvelope by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

ImageLetter by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr


He was basically told he contacted the wrong office. Phill couldn’t write, but he had a secretary that could…and she was the one who did this for him. Speaks to his desire to get this claim in action. Next to that paper, hidden away in his bedroom, was a denial letter – stating no permits would be issued for any claims, citing an 18 month moratorium. See attached:

ImageScreen Shot 2018-07-17 at 8.10.26 PM by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

ImageScreen Shot 2018-07-17 at 8.10.39 PM by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

ImageScreen Shot 2018-07-17 at 8.10.49 PM by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr



I have since filed a FOIA to get a copy of the letter that Phill originally wrote, but was told that all documents from that time period were lost in a fire. To this day, all of us would love to know the area in which Phill wanted to file a claim. Yet another piece lost to history and time…. Phill Leasman (outside of Travis’s wife Alleen, was his right hand man)


I went back home to Scottsdale again. This time with a few more photos as well, such as this one. No one in the family knows who he is – do you? Could this be Charlie Miller? We don’t know…

ImageUnknown Man Superstitions by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

Eventually I would move to Stockdale as a full time resident, living on the family ranch. It was truly an honor and I miss those days tremendously. Something about sitting outside and watching the lighting bugs, having the manuscript in my hand – a crackling fire and stories that were brought back with a little good conversation. A lot of talk of Weaver’s Needle. The Peralta Treasure Room. Finding the bodies of dead soldiers in a cave, with their old flint lock pistols still attached. I miss Texas a lot..

During the days I would rummage the house, the attic – not finding anything more. I would move on to the other structures on the ranch, starting with an old barn that was full of old car parts & tools. The amount of hubcaps for Oldsmobile’s was astounding!

Eventually I would come across an old footlocker. I opened it up and found a bunch of serpentine belts, air intakes, a braided rope – just more of the same, really. Kept digging deeper – and would find a wooden tube. Opened it up….and bam! More maps.

This container was very rusty on the ends – it had to have been from the 1950s – 1960s. Inside of it was 3 wooden dowels, with papers wrapped around them.

ImageBarn Tube by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

They included:

1) Spanish treasure codes and their descriptions (roughly 20 pages)
2) A map that referenced star constellations.
3) A map that I had never seen of supposed mines around the Weaver’s Needle Area



The star constellation map is what caught my interest the most. It was like nothing I had seen yet, except that it did share some similarities to the heart insert, to include a bunch of zeros.

This map is what I would call The Barn Map. Not because its some blue print to a barn, but….because I found it in a barn.
I know a lot of this is going to be upsetting, and rightfully so. I know that you folks would love to see these maps and I wish that I could show you. There are many reasons I cannot – the first of which is we are still working on them. The second is they are very prized heirlooms. I remember one time I had asked one of the family members, “If someone offered you 1 Million cash for the ground map, would you sell it?

“No! Hell no!”

I hope you can understand – and put yourself in their shoes.

The next part of this story I cannot go into major detail either – and once again I am sorry to disappoint. I am sure accusations will be made – saying things like I cannot back it up. I have been asked to keep the identity and how I got in contact with 2 of the most remarkable men I have ever had the honor of meeting, high ranking Jesuit Father’s.

I showed them The Ground Map and The Barn Map. They were astounded. They were immediately recognizable to them – and asked me where I had found them.

“On a ranch in the middle of nowhere Texas”

Copies of the maps were flown to Rome – scrutinized to the highest degree. They were prayed about……and they were accepted as pieces of Jesuit History.

Once the weather cools down, an article will be coming out about my dealings with the Jesuits, the relationship and bond we formed…..and written by and for….the Jesuits. I sincerely look forward to this piece coming out, so that I may share it here for you all to read.

The piece is going to focus on the recovery of the maps and the later theft of millions of dollars of Jesuit artifacts and other belongings. The theft of these items, and the further loss of our series, was the result of a company that was hired to do ground penetrating radar on the site I have nicknamed “The 1847 Site” – it’s the place the ground map tells you to go – and it’s the same place in which I will share the coordinates with all of you, to check out on your own.

I will continue to write in the coming days.

Again, please do not steal / print / publish any of the photos I have posted.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by Carrol » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:21 pm

Thank's Ryan, very interesting read!
There was no phone at the house Miller was taking care of.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:26 pm

Carrol wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:21 pm

There was no phone at the house Miller was taking care of.
Can you explain?

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by Carrol » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:34 pm

He was watching/taking care of a house for-I think the owners name was Blankenship.on the left side of the road that passes the Bluebird mine. As a kid I was there a few times playing with the mouse traps on the front patio. His house in Phoenix was only a few miles from ours.

I had mentioned a while back on the other forum, showing my dad's note about something to do with the water well next to Miller's house. My dad referred to the house as "the Miller house" even tho he was just taking care of it.

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