THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

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Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

Hello Cubfan and welcome to the Forum,

I thought Zen and I were talking about the same Roger, but some things didn’t fit right so I wasn’t sure. I think the person you met at the Rendezvous that knew me, was Dan Zacha (Tom Glover’s Nephew). Dan and I made a trip into the mountains while you and Roger were in there, and saw a vehicle parked at the Peter’s trailhead. He told me he thought it might have been what you and Roger drove in. He wanted me to take a photo of him posed to break into the vehicle so he could email it to you, as his idea of a joke. Did he ever send it? I will drop it in below. (Is this the guy you are talking about)

Image

It’s good to see someone join the forum, that has actually spent some time with their boots on the ground in the Superstitions. I have no doubt that it was Roger, who focused your attention on the Peter’s Mesa area, instead of letting you waste your time in the Weaver’s Needle country that most newcomers head for.

Re: “If those mountains could only talk”

It has been my experience that the more time you spend in there. The more they do talk. It just takes a long time to learn how to understand what they are telling you. I could probably name a dozen things in plain sight, or just a short distance off the trail, out of sight, that you walked right past between where you parked. and the Mesa that you never noticed, or gave a second thought, if you did.

But I won’t… ;) Because the pleasure is in the search, and the finding for yourself. Short of actually finding the gold of Superstition Mountain. It is the most rewarding experience you could ever have out there.

Look forward to hearing more from you!

Jim



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Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by cubfan64 »

yes indeed, Dan's the fellow I was thinking of. I couldn't recall the name, but I recognize the face and build. That's the Highlander I rented for the trip as well.

Woulda been funny if you'd left a note signed the "Black Legion" or something :). I hadn't gotten a copy of the photo so didn't have a clue anyone had been there.

My 3 hikes so far were all the first times I've ever seen or been in the desert, so it's been a real adventure for me. I expected rattlesnakes, tarantula's, centipedes and scorpions to be underfoot at every turn but have only come across few of each. Mind you I'm certain I passed 100 for every 1 I saw, but at least I'm not stopping before each step like I thought I might have to :)

Your comment about being able to point things out to me that I'm sure I passed by is well taken trust me! What with no experience in geology, mines, native american history, etc... I don't stand much chance of coming across anything too interesting. About the only things I have going for me are a natural curiosity and a desire to explore "off the beaten path" as much as possible. It'll take alot more practice for me to pick out things that are "out of place" in that terrain as it all looks out of place to me (hehe).

So far I've only hiked/explored a few areas:

1) Took the Carney Springs trail up and over into West Boulder Canyon and followed that to Willow Spring just to visit the supposed "Adolph Ruth" area. Then followed that around and came back to the Peralta Trailhead.

2) Spent a day exploring the Massacre Grounds

3) Hiked to Reavis Falls and back

4) Went from the Roger's Canyon Trailhead to Reavis Ranch and spent the night so I could visit Circlestone. Visited the Angel Basin area Cliff Dwellings

5) Peter's Mesa with Roger

6) Hiked Fish Creek Canyon the intersection with Apache Junction down to within sight of the little bridge to the Horse Mesa Government buildings - by then the water was up to my neck and I ended up climbing up to the road and hiking back that along the service road. Climbed up Black Crosse Butte the next day with a friend and saw some beautiful sights of the Salt River and areas Northward.

7) Spent a little time in the Whitlow Canyon area

8) Enjoyed a day out at Garden Valley - an especially beautiful spot I enjoyed exploring.

I try to jam as much into my short trips as I can and have had an opportunity to hike both with some new friends as well as alone - which to be honest is something I really enjoy. Everyone needs a chance to "decompress" from life now and then, and I haven't found a place so well suited for that than the Superstitions where the "loner" spirit in me feels so comfortable.

I'm glad I stumbled across this forum recently - I've read a number of the articles on the DesertUSA site and of course have heard your name more than a few times, but had no idea there was a forum here as well.

You'll certainly hear more from me as time goes by ;).
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

Sounds like you have hit some of the most beautiful places in the mountains.

I'd call you anything but a Novice. You are wise to see as much different country as you can when just starting out. It puts you way ahead of the guy who has been going in the mountains for "X" amount of years, and always go to the same area, via the same trail, and never wanders more than a mile from the same camping spot he uses each time.

Those people will Boast of their years of experience, but in my opinion, they do not have as much experience in the mountains as you have.

Jim
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Mike Bilbry And The Stone Crosses

Post by Roger »

Would like to introduce myself as a new member to the Forum – name is Roger, and yes the same Roger that Zen, Clubfan, and Jim Hatt have commented about earlier on the Forum. I appreciate the kind words from all.

I got interested in the LDM in 1993 when I lived in the Phoenix area. Did some backpacking in with neighborhood friends (have never backpacked with Greg Davis, although hope to in the future!) – mainly to Geronimo Head, Peters Mesa, and Tortilla Mtn, but also have done the First Water day loop (13 miles), Rogers Canyon and the cliff dwellings at Angel Springs, Indian Paint Mines, Black Top, Aylor’s Camp, and other sightseeing spots in the Supers. I moved out of Arizona in 1997 and slowed down on LDM activities, but retired a few years ago and have gotten back into research and exploring around the Lost Dutchman Rendezvous campouts in late October at the Don’s Camp. I have made all of the Lost Dutchman Rendezvous’ starting in 2005. I have done a lot of research on the LDM and amassed a modest collection of books, maps, articles, notes, and clues over the last 16 years. Can’t say I know where the LDM is located, but have some great areas to look into plus a good idea of what the mine area should look like. May be miles off course, but I really enjoy the LDM as a hobby – wouldn’t bet the farm on getting rich on it! I enjoy hiking in the Supers for the beauty of the country and serenity there. At the same time, I feel I am walking in the footsteps of the history of the Native Americans, Spanish, Mexicans, and Anglos who walked these same paths in earlier years.

The following was my involvement with Mike Bilbry’s Stone Crosses in the time period of 1996 to 1999:

In my early LDM research prior to learning of the Greg Davis’s vast collection, I did what I could to collect info and maps. One of the sources I used to get map copies was to have the curator at the Superstition Mtn Museum (then located at Goldfield) to allow me to take a number of the pictures/photo’s they had on the wall of LDM maps and to make copies of them using transparency paper and foil markers. One of the copies I made was of the Stone Maps.

I moved from Arizona in 1997, but still went there on work related travel and would dig in Greg’s collections when I could work in an extra day. One thing I discovered was Greg having an audio taped interview with Mike Bilbry made in July 1978. Greg made me a copy of the Bilbry tape. Greg also had a file on Bilbry and in it were copies of 2 of Bilbry’s mining claims that he had filed on the Southwest corner of Tortilla Mtn, which I copied.

That’s the history of my involvement with Mike Bilbry’s Stone Crosses. I have not been to the site he claims to have found the crosses at and have never tried to hunt for anything based on Bilbry’s information. I have only listened to the tapes several times – making notes on key items and tried to map the locations Mike was talking about. I have looked around on top of Tortilla Mtn a little, but never spent much time there.

Here are a few points from Bilbry’s tape:

Mike was originally using the Peralta Stone Maps in trying to locate the LDM. He made his interpretation of where the Peralta Stone Maps were leading and ended up in the Tortilla Ranch and Tortilla Mtn areas. While searching the SW side of Tortilla Mtn, he found several “cross’s” on the face of a cliff face. He dug under one and found a shaft that he cleared to its bottom at 20 feet and found a quartz vein but it was of no value. He dug at another “cross” and found the Stone Crosses in loose gravel. The big/fat one was found first and was lying face down and broken. The other cross was found next to it. Mike then filed his claims starting in the late 1970’s, which surrounded the location where the crosses were found. He noted on Arizona Mining Claim #189723 that there was a “large cross above the mine in a northeast direction”. When that area didn’t yield anything, he began to explore the rest of Tortilla Mtn and claimed to have found a large number of old covered mine shafts elsewhere on Tortilla. Jim Hatt gives a much more in-depth set of information on Bilbry on DUSA than this.

For a general location of where Mike said he found the crosses, one has to use some assumptions. The two claim forms I found in Greg Davis’ files were claim numbers AMC189723 (2/13/82) and AMC193561(4/03/83) which Jim Hatt covered in an earlier posting. Along with these claim forms are 1:24,000 topo maps showing the location of the claims. The latter claim form topo shows 17 different claim layouts labeled “LDM 2” to “LDM 18”. There is one additional claim block that is blocked out with a large X through it – I suspect this is the original “LDM 1” that Bilbry filed covering the mine location which is also the area where he found the Stone Cross’s. My supposition is that the center of claim LDM 1 is at that mine location. Here’s how to find that location on a 1:2400 Weavers Needle topo: If you follow Peters Trail from Tortilla Ranch trailhead until it goes through the small pass at the SW corner of Tortilla Mtn before it turns to the North, there will be a small knob on the North side of that pass with the elevation marker 3900. Run a line 23 degrees West of North for exactly 1 inch from the center of this knob on the map and you will be approximately at the discovery site from what I can make of the tapes plus the mining claims.

Jim Hatt – any comment on this location idea?

That’s about the sum of my “Stone Crosses” experience. I have heard/read other sources that claimed the Crosses were found at the head of Cottonwood Canyon that runs up the SW side of Tortilla Mtn out of Peters Canyon. However, that location would not match where Bilbry had his claims.

I think the Stone Crosses are a somewhat obscure part of the Lost Dutchman lore - probably because they were not made very public early on plus the discrediting of them as fakes didn't help. I would note that the markings on the crosses contain some of the same symbols that Chuck Kenworthy has in his book "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs" (1991). I think Kenworthy’s treasure signs/symbols/etc are valid info from the archives of Spain. However, I also think Chuck went way overboard on seeing a Spanish sign in giant geological figures, notched cliffs, etc in the Supers. I have located several of those shown in his other books and I certainly don’t think the Spanish spent up to years carving those items for marking a mine – especially in Indian country.

My personal opinion is that the Spanish/Mexicans had active mines in the heart of the Superstitions and that the Peralta Stone Maps were designed to locate one of them. Also, the Spanish/Mexicans had mines on Tortilla Mountain at the same time period and I would suspect the Stone Crosses were designed to locate those mines. Thomas Glover in his book "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz - Part 1: The Golden Dream" has a small insert article on Page 208. An Apache told Whoolie Bacon the following:

"There were two groups of "Mexicans", and only the southern group was massacred. When the southern group was attacked a few men escaped to the north warning the northern group camped around Indian Springs. Unloaded burros were immediately sent up a canyon trail to the top of the east end of Tortilla Mountain where a group was working. When the mules came down they were loaded with rocks. The Apache watched this, but did not have enough men to attack both groups, and the northern group escaped. Years later Monte Edwards confirmed he had found this old trail and followed it, at the top Monte found the Four Peaks looked as one."

I think this tale is true plus the enduring feud between the Peralta's and the Gonzales' started from this fight with the Peralta's being the southern group that was massacred and the Gonzales being the northern group that escaped with their gold load. The Peralta's believed the Gonzales should have gone to the aid of their men instead of escaping with their gold and scalps.

Roger
Jim Hatt

Re: Mike Bilbry And The Stone Crosses

Post by Jim Hatt »

Roger wrote:For a general location of where Mike said he found the crosses, one has to use some assumptions. The two claim forms I found in Greg Davis’ files were claim numbers AMC189723 (2/13/82) and AMC193561(4/03/83) which Jim Hatt covered in an earlier posting. Along with these claim forms are 1:24,000 topo maps showing the location of the claims. The latter claim form topo shows 17 different claim layouts labeled “LDM 2” to “LDM 18”. There is one additional claim block that is blocked out with a large X through it – I suspect this is the original “LDM 1” that Bilbry filed covering the mine location which is also the area where he found the Stone Cross’s. My supposition is that the center of claim LDM 1 is at that mine location. Here’s how to find that location on a 1:2400 Weavers Needle topo: If you follow Peters Trail from Tortilla Ranch trailhead until it goes through the small pass at the SW corner of Tortilla Mtn before it turns to the North, there will be a small knob on the North side of that pass with the elevation marker 3900. Run a line 23 degrees West of North for exactly 1 inch from the center of this knob on the map and you will be approximately at the discovery site from what I can make of the tapes plus the mining claims.

Jim Hatt – any comment on this location idea?

Roger
I think that you puts you right on the spot Roger.

I want to make a note for anyone exploring in that area. There is a saddle up there which overlooks Peter's Mesa and offers a nice view of Weaver's Needle in the Background. There are two very tall towers of rock and a grave in that saddle. The grave site is marked by a cross made from an intentionally broken walking stick, that has a dog's collar hanging on it. That is the grave of my 120 pound Chocolate Labrador "Duke". You can see him beside me in the bottom of my avatar photo.

Duke had a stroke in that saddle and died there Aug 2, 2002. I spent an entire afternoon rolling large boulders uphill, from quite a ways away to cover him with, and keep the coyotes and Mtn Lions from him.

His grave has been vandalized several times. People have torn down the cross and removed the boulders to see what is beneath them. Then they just sloppily put the boulders back and left the cross and collar laying on the ground. My guess is that they were not bright enough to figure out from the cross and dog collar what was there.

If you go up there, please let Duke rest in peace.

Photo of Duke and his Grave Site below.

Duke about one hour before he died.
Image


Duke's grave Site.
Image

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Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Iggy »

What a sad story Jim. :cry:
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Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by djui5 »

Hey Cubfan and Roger!! Glad you guys are here :D See you both in October.

Jim,
Sorry to hear about your dog. If I'm ever in the area I will leave a gift and restore the site if it has been vandalized. People suck sometimes.
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

Thanks Iggy... yeah it's still hard to think about, but I'm sure this fall, there will be people going up there to explore Bilbrey's area, and I wanted to let them know ahead of time what the grave site was all about. I often sit up on a high point overlooking that spot, and I have no idea how I would react, if I saw someone throwing that cross on the ground. I always carry two pistols. A .44 Mag. And a .38 derringer, and a lot of ammiunition for both. I would do my best to convince them that the “Apache Tunder God” and the “Black Legion” were both after them at the same time!



Roger,
Roger wrote:I have looked around on top of Tortilla Mtn a little, but never spent much time there.

I remember when you made that trip Roger. You had contacted me a few days before to see if I wanted to go in with you (and I thought Greg Davis) and show you the easiest way up Indian Spring Canyon. I was working a lot of OT at Palo Verde at the time and had to pass, but I member telling you that there was no easy way up that canyon, but recommended that you stay on the right (North) side of it or you would have to fight thick brush almost all the way up.

I was up there about a month after your trip, and found a spot in the saddle at the head of the canyon, where I assumed you had camped and had a fire in a circle of rocks near a wall just North of it. That circle of rocks had not been there the last time I passed through that area, and I was pretty sure it was where you had camped.

Hmmmm, If it wasn't Greg Davis that went with you. Who was it? I do remember that you weren't planning on going alone, and I'm sure that it wasn't Tom Kollenborn or Clay Worst, because they both know how to get up there, and you wouldn't have needed directions from me if either one of them had been going with you. Was it Jack Carlson?

Djui,
Thanks Buddy, I appreciate it! Duke will too I am sure!

(Sorry about the bold type all the time, but I need it to see what I wrote when I preview my own posts before submitting them. Sometimes I even have to switch yours to bold before I can see them good enough to read. It's tough when the "lights" start dimming on you! Maybe... it's the font this form uses?)

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Tortilla Mountain Hike

Post by Roger »

Jim,

I went up on Tortilla with my next door neighbor as he camped some with his family. We did go up the NE side of the long canyon that runs due NW from Indian Springs to the top of Tortilla. It wasn't too bad of a climb and certainly not dangerous. I talked to an old timer that worked at Goldfield in the early 1990's who said he found a very old trial up the near West side of that canyon. The trail was washed out in a lot of places, but identifiable by what did remain. If true, would suspect that this is the trail the Mexicans used to get to the top of Tortilla to load their gold and escape as the Indian told Whoolie Bacon.

We did not build a fire on Tortilla - did cold meals there. Camped fairly close to the top of the canyon we came up through. There are some very large and flat boulders in that area and we used a level spot there. Got rid of the packs and explored Tortilla to the North. We did find one thing that I have been meaning to go back and explore, but interests went to other areas. There are some cliffs that rise up on the NW side of the mountain (not all the way to the North end) overlooking Peters Canyon. On one side of a cliff facing South and about 75ft above the general top of the mountain is a white faced rock. There were several small shadow areas near it that might have been caves/crevices.
Having read Kenworthy's book earlier, was watching for markers and signs and that white faced rock was very much out of common on that rock face. Took a photo of it, but didn't have time to explore it. See photo below:

Image

There's possibly a cross cut into the center of the rock, but also may just be natural cracking. The Spanish/Mexicans would use a large white-washed rock for an "eye catcher" as either a marker along a trail or there would be additional directions/clues near the marker that would lead on to something. Wonder if the Mexicans had whitewashed the rock as a marker for something hidden nearby or a way marker? Below is a photo of that rock. I have found another white washed directional pointer rock elsewhere in the Supers that perfectly matches what's in Kenworthy's book.

Jim. if you find a pile of gold up there, send me a little sample of it!!!! ha

Roger
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

That white rock sure does look out of place there Roger! I see why it caught your attention. Too bad you didn't have the time to explore the area around it. Oh well, There's always the next trip.

Jim
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