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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:08 pm
Posts: 1
Let me first introduce myself, My name is Reggie Wayne I am what most would say is an extreme hiker. Basically I travel alot to the southwest and explore interesting folk lore involving treasure, mines and Gold. Having spent alot of time in central california at the birthplace of Gold Prospecting, once hooked always hooked. I graduated in 1983 from Arizona State with a degree in Geology and now live in Denver. I have not been back to the Superstition Mountains in a few years but was going through some old photos and did a search on the Lost Dutchman Mine, which led me to your forum. Back in the mid 80's I did alot of hiking and adventure trails specifically around the Lost Dutchman and reading through all of your posts I believe I actually met a guy who I think was this Micheal Bilbrey. I hired him as a guide back in 84 ( I think ) and must say he was extremely knowledgeable about the Lost Dutchman and seemed as though he knew something no one else did.

Interesting enough, several years ago I was in Wyoming and want to say I heard something about Micheal Bilbrey being in a Cheyenne newspaper but it was one of those things that you say " Hey wasn't that the guy that we went with on in the Superstition Mountains ? " I really am just going off of memory here but I thought he was investigating something about " The Lost Gold of Devils Tower".

I can't imagine if one actually found the Dutchmans treasure would come right out and say it, but he did show us a few relics that seemed amazing. Let me know if I can help you answer any questions. I had met Micheal again after our trip back in 84, I remember running into Mike in Phoenix shortly after our trip.

Reggie


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 Post subject: White Marked Stone on Tortilla Mtn
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:14 pm
Posts: 17
Jim,

Thanks for posting the photo in my previous post on Page 6 of this topic that I was having trouble uploading.

Anyone got any comments on the that stone?

Thanks,

Roger


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:11 pm 
Any time Roger!



Reggie,

Welcome to the Forum. It's a pleasure to have someone here that actually knew Michael. We are all very interested in anything you can tell us about about him. I am especially interested in anything he might have told you about " The Lost Gold of Devils Tower". Was that something that existed in Wyoming or Arizona?

When you were hiking with him, did the two of you only go to the places that you hired him to guide you to, or did he take you to any of his favorite places?

What kind of a guy was he to be on trail with?
Did you spend any nights around the campfire with him?

Glad to have you here Reggie!

Jim Hatt


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:17 am 
I had a nice visit with Tom Kollenborn last week, that produced some solid evidence that Michael Bilbrey is alive and well. It also clearly identifies the Michael Bilbrey, (Finder of the Stone Crosses) as the same Michael Bilbrey, in connection with a Cancer and Aids Cure Scam.

This confirms what Zen believed and posted here. That there is an error in the birth date in the Prison records of the Michael Kent Bilbrey, listed as being born in 1960.

I got 16 pages of information from Tom. 14 of them were a repeat of most of the information I had received from Al Reser dated between 1978 and 1983, and had already posted in this forum. But! There were 2 pages, one from 1991, and one from 1995 that finally tied everything together, and changed the whole complexion of the story.

Additional information supplied to me by Tom verbally, that he obtained from officials involved with Michael’s prosecution, explain why Michael will not discuss the Stone Crosses with anyone. According to what Tom was told… Doing so would be a violation of his parole, as it would be considered as attempt to run a Scam.

Michael is between a rock and a hard place, when it comes to discussing the Stone Crosses.

There are at least two bottom lines here:

1 – There is no need to form a search for his bleaching bones in the Superstitions.

2 – It would probably be next to impossible, to get Michael to discuss the Stone Crosses.

The only remaining question of any importance is… Did Michael find the Crosses like he said he did, or did he fabricate them, and use them to attract investors?

Unless the Crosses someday speak for themselves. We may never know!

Jim



Most of what I had posted in this forum, was done when I thought I had good reason to believe Michael was dead. Now that I know that he is alive, and doing his best to rebuild his life. I have removed all information related to the search for him, and left only the things that apply to the Stone crosses, and renamed the topic.

He did wrong. He paid for it, and it appears that he just wants to be left alone.

Jim Hatt


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
Posts: 29
Jim,

It is unfortunate when muddy water gets even cloudier. The Stone Maps, all included have enough scrutiny to go through. Some now will argue that if the Stone Crosses are authentic, then he would not have to worry about further legal problems in discussing them. Ie, it would not be a scam. I personally can understand not touching subjects with 10' poles and letting sleeping dogs lie.

If I had to make an opinion with the current knowledge I have, I would tend to believe the crosses are authentic. Maybe I will go into further detail later.

It is sad to see someone who might be in possession of something that could be of great value, tarnish his credibility. However, he has paid his debt, and deserves respect for efforts put in the quest for the truth.

On a side note. Maybe we should start a Latin Heart thread. I would love to come across any info I have not found as of yet.

Rex


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:54 pm 
Good to see you Rex,

I believe as you do that the Stone Crosses are authentic. But in Michael's case. If he were under pressure to prove it, it could be a difficult thing to do. If I were in his shoes right now, I would be a little paranoid about talking to anyone about them, no matter how much "I" personally believed in them.

I think you and I could make a stronger case for the authenticity of the Crosses than Michael could himself, but he is still the only one that could point to a particular spot in the mountains and say "Right there is where I found them".

I have thought about opening a topic about the Latin Heart, but that thing is so complex... I'm not sure I have that much time to dedicate to running a discussion about it.

Now... If you foresee enough free time in your future to run a discussion about it, I will set it up with all the necessary graphic files and an introduction, and you can run with it. ;)

It might result in some interesting translations to some of the Latin words we have not seen before.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:58 am
Posts: 17
Jim,

Not only could Michael Bilbrey point to the spot on Tortilla Mt., where he claims he found the crosses, but he could also point to the exact place they will lead you to, at least that's what he was claiming in 1978.

What he was looking for at that time, was a buyer for the crosses. He did not really want an investor to fund the opening of the shafts, but only wanted some cash for the artifacts. When asked if he would turn down professional help in opening his find, he stated he would turn that down. what he wanted was money, as he could not pay his bills at the time. He stated a number of times, that he needed a new car.

Perhaps, bringing professionals in to see his "find", would have exposed the whole thing as a fraud. If the crosses were authentic, he could have had that confirmed by experts and sold them to a museum. My guess is that he would have done better than a new car, maybe even a house.

Wonder what happened to his original crosses.

Take care,

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:51 pm 
Joe,

I have no idea where the original crosses ended up. I have been trying to find out for years with no success.

re: Not only could Michael Bilbrey point to the spot on Tortilla Mt., where he claims he found the crosses, but he could also point to the exact place they will lead you to, at least that's what he was claiming in 1978.

I have to disagree with that. I don't believe he did figure out where they led to. I also think I know why. Nuff said on that issue.

re: If the crosses were authentic, he could have had that confirmed by experts and sold them to a museum.

I have to disagree with you again Joe. Michael had the same problem verifying the Stone Crosses that has always prevented verifying the Stone Maps. They are rocks... Thousands of years old, everyone knows that, but once they have been handled and cleaned there is no possible way of dating the inscriptions on them.

re: What he was looking for at that time, was a buyer for the crosses. He did not really want an investor to fund the opening of the shafts, but only wanted some cash for the artifacts.

I don't fault him for that. (Assuming that they were authentic and he found them the where and how he said he did). He definitely invested everything he had at the time into searching for what they led to. That leads me to believe that he believed in them. He obviously passed the stage of Passion into Obsession. He appeared to believe that they did lead to a buried treasure and already had a lot invested into finding that treasure. That is not the opportune time to bring in new partners. The way I see it, he thought he was close and just needed a way to buy a little more time to wrap it up.

I believe in the authenticity of the Stone Crosses not because of anything Bilbrey said, but because of my own foot work in the mountains. There are things on the crosses that I am sure Bilbrey misunderstood, which was the cause of his failure to solve them. Like the stone maps they are designed to confuse on purpose. Ambiguity being the key word. Everyone sees something different in how to decipher them. That was no accident, it was designed into them. You have to figure out how to do the math that unlocks the code, to really figure them out. When you understand the Stone Maps, you then understand the Stone Crosses. When you under the Stone Crosses you then begin to understand the Latin Heart.

I can't say any more about Michael Bilbrey. I ran that trail all the way to the end. But, I will never stop saying that I believe in the authenticity of the Stone Crosses in spite of the fact that it was Bilbrey that found them.

I never form a "conclusion" based on anything I have read in a book or been told by anyone. I form theories from that kind of information. When I form conclusions like I have about the Stone Maps, Crosses and Latin Heart, it is based on my own first hand experiences in the mountains.

I don't care if Tumlinson found the maps down by Florence Jct, or if he got them from his father. I don't care if Bilbrey found the crosses on Tortilla Mountain or in a pawn shop in Mesa. I don't care if Bill Hidden found the Latin Heart in the desert North of Florence Jct. or bought it from another prospector. What I do care about is the information written on them and if/how that information applies to the Superstition Mountains.

For over 10 years now I have been publicly stating that I believe they are ALL authentic. Not that I have them solved, but that I believe they can be solved, and there is something very valuable at the end of the trail. I believe "Jake" and Kenworthy were both very close to figuring out the stone maps, but they never figured out how do do the math on them.

It does not matter to me if anyone else believes that or not. All that matters to me is that everyone remembers that I first stated back in the 1990's, that I believed they were authentic. ;)

I will enjoy my "Told you so" day. Maybe not in this life, but perhaps someday sitting around that big campfire in the sky with Fr. Kino, Jacob Waltz, Storm, Bark, Ely, Holmes and all the rest of them.

I would be satisfied with that.

Jim Hatt




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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:58 am
Posts: 17
Jim,

Just two questions:

If you wanted to, could you create your own (unique) stone maps/crosses with information that you have gathered, and things you have seen in the mountains?

Did you ever contact Ed Farr?

Thanks in advance,

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:02 pm 
re:If you wanted to, could you create your own (unique) stone maps/crosses with information that you have gathered, and things you have seen in the mountains?

I suppose anybody could. Not sure how good they would be compared to the originals tho, I am NOT a stone cutter. My reproductions are made from plaster, using latex molds cast off the original stones, so there is no talent required. Copying in plaster (Where no carving is required) is much easier than actually carving stone.

I have cut my initials in a boulder a time or two, (About 4" high) and I can tell you... That was a LOT of work! Wasn't real pretty either! My shoulder was still sore from swinging the hammer that many times two days later.

Whoever carved the stone maps was a Master Stone Cutter. Possibly someone who had carved a lot of gravestones, and was hired for the job. You can look at the stones and tell that they were not his first attempt at carving stone. Even with modern day tools I could not match that quality of work in real stone. (The exceptions are the lightly scratched in etchings that appear to have been done by someone other than the original artist) All additional information added to help in locating the points of interest.

IE: 8-N-P

You should get yourself a rock, a hammer and a chisel and try carving something yourself. I think you would end up with a new appreciation for the quality of work on the stone maps. Try cutting a piece of stone into a cross shape using any type of tools you want. Don't worry about carving anything on it, just try to shape it into a cross without breaking it. I think you will develop a new appreciation for that feat also. The writings on the stone crosses appear to have possibly been done, by the same hand that did the light etchings on the stone maps.

I looked for Ed Farr years ago. My only interest in him was to see if he knew where Bilbrey was. Farr may have been able to answer some of my questions, but it would have been second hand info. Bilbrey was supposed to have been alone when he found the crosses. I wanted to hear his story from HIM.

Jim


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