SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

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AshtonPage
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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:52 pm

Hi Ed,

Sims tells us:
“My primary source was Helena Thomas herself. I first questioned her in 1896, and thereafter, through the years, I talked with her scores of times, going over and over the dramatic adventures she had heard Waltz relate.” (pg 114)

Regarding Waltz telling Julia and Reiney about the mine “on the basis of Jim Bark's and my subsequent rigorous cross-examination of both Helena and Reiney” (pg 96). That statement has lead to speculation that Sims referenced Barks notes (I don’t want to go there) in whole or in part for his book.

I personally believe that Conatser “fills in the blanks” in Sims book. In order to arrive at that conclusion, you have to be willing to make some assumptions. So I will leave it at that and suggest reading both Sims and Conatser.

Hey BabyMick,

Dang – I knew I was missing something (some would say it is more than gold crayons). Thanks for the laugh. The sketch I made was taken from a drawing I saw somewhere (can’t remember) about Mexican mines of the period.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by cubfan64 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:27 pm

It's just a little off topic, but it's always been sort of interesting to me that neither Bark nor Ely every mention Dick Holmes as being a source for any of their information.

I think it's likely that through speaking with Julia and Reiney, they must have been 100%convinced that Dick Holmes had indeed stolen the gold ore from the candlebox and was therefore not trustworthy. If not, one would think they would have interviewed Dick as well as Gideon Roberts who the stories say was there with Dick Holmes at Waltz's bedside at the end.

I'll have to look in Ely's book and the Bark notes again tonight, because I don't recall if Julia's story of Waltz dying even included her asking Dick to watch him while she went to get the doctor. My memory is overloaded at the moment.

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by roc2rol » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:50 pm

Wow! I never knew that Sims didn’t interview Holmes.
They obviously knew of each other… No?
What year did Dick Holmes die?
What about the son?
Was he ever interviewed
Does the Conaster book explore this ?

Thanks guys !

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:12 am

I didn't get a chance to check the Bark Notes last night, but did check Ely. This is from my edition page 112 bottom:

"The two who mourned him, returned from the burial service, went about their duties, and they did not think of the box of gold under Waltz's bed until that evening. Then they found that the box was empty. Somebody, it was evident, had entered the unlocked house while they were at the cemetery and carried the gold away. But moe than that, they never knew."

Kinda different from the Holme's manuscript isn't it!!? And thus the beginning of which side of the fence you fall on, the Holme's side or the Thomas side of the stories.

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by babymick1 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:37 pm

Kindda hard to believe they went all day without thinking of a box of gold !
shear poppycock!


Babymick1

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:41 pm

Since Bark and Ely were partners, I don’t feel this is too far off topic. From Barks Notes - the chapter entitled Jacob Wash:
“When they went to the funeral, the soap box disappeared, and Helena and Rhiney each suspected the other with making away with it, but both were innocent, and it is not necessary to the story to mention the name of the guilty party, so I will pass it.” – Bark doesn’t mention Holmes either and deliberately goes out of his way to avoid doing so.

I generally try to document what I post, but I can't remember where I read this, therefore no reference, sorry. I do remember reading that the disagreement between Julia and Dick literally erupted into public shouting matches on more than one occasion. The ‘split’ between the Holmes \ Petrasch camps continues to this day. Although nowadays the split is based more upon the irreconcilable differences between the two versions. That is to say, if you locate Holmes Ridge (as described) most of the clues from Bark \ Ely are not there. However, I contend that Waltz was passing out during the death bed confession (see the Holmes Manuscript) and therefore I believe that Waltz was delirious at the time he was telling Holmes where the mine was. I will also contend that if you follow Ely, you will find the “correct” Holmes ridge with everything Waltz described – except his directions (N.S.E.W.) are catty-wompas….. which I would expect from someone who is drifting in and out of consciousness, as Waltz was. I realize that makes some assumptions, so take it for what it is worth.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by babymick1 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:03 pm

[The sketch I made was taken from a drawing I saw somewhere (can’t remember) about Mexican mines of the period.

Best,
Ashton[/quote]


The sketch is more of native american then mexican they would have blasted.
The dutchman said his mine was a old indian mine and the spanish tunnel was below, But not finnished.

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by roc2rol » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:15 pm

and this may be a silly question
but what was a soapbox?
how big were they?
what did they look like in those days?
off my soapbox of questions
:P

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:57 pm

babymick1 wrote:
The dutchman said his mine was a old indian mine and the spanish tunnel was below, But not finnished.

Babymick1
Hi BabyMick,

I’ve been looking through Sims book - but I can’t find where Waltz said it was an Indian mine. It’s no secret that I follow Sims, so if it’s in his book that Waltz said it was an Old Indian mine, then that makes a big difference to me as to what I am looking for.

Would you be kind enough to give me the page number of that quote? Maybe I’m just looking past it.

Thanks in Advance,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:29 am

Hey guys,

I'm with Ashton on this one, there is no mention that I can remember that the mine is an Indian Mine. There are too many stories of the mine being a Mexican mine. Such as the "clue" that the mine had "flailing walls", "in the mexican style". Remember the Indians referred to Gold as "Squaw Metal". It meant nothing to them, until they realized that it was important to the White Man. Only then did they start to trade with it.

As far as the Mexicans "blasting", there is never any mention of this that I can remember from any of Waltz' stories. The only reference I can remember is in Conaster's book, where she mentions that the Mexicans used "Green" trees, jammed into rocks, then lit on fire. As the wood expanded, it would break the rock. In her book, there is supposedly a "mine" that they found that this method was actually used. As far as what they were mining in this particular hole, she didnt know (Or didnt say).

Ashton's drawing is exactly how I envision the mine to be, minus the ladders. There is never any mention that I can remember of ladders. I personally think they just used the "steps", and carried the ore out on their backs. (Nice drawing Ashton)

thanks,
Travis

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