SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:38 am

Hello,

I forgot to ad a couple more points I wanted to address.

The reason I dont believe they used ladders is because of what Waltz supposedly said. He mentioned that the "hole" or "opening" was only about 3 feet wide, and he widened it to 6 feet. That is the main reason that I personally don't believe they used ladders. It was a very tight hole.

Now, I also don't believe the hole was "dug" by the Mexicans. The reason is a clue credited to either Bark or Ely (Away from my notes, can't remember exactly who) One of them said the Mine was a "Volcanic Vent". To me, that means that is was "made" by nature. This isnt too hard to prove possible (personal opinion).

Thanks,
Travis

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:22 am

AshtonPage wrote:Since Bark and Ely were partners, I don’t feel this is too far off topic. From Barks Notes - the chapter entitled Jacob Wash:
“When they went to the funeral, the soap box disappeared, and Helena and Rhiney each suspected the other with making away with it, but both were innocent, and it is not necessary to the story to mention the name of the guilty party, so I will pass it.” – Bark doesn’t mention Holmes either and deliberately goes out of his way to avoid doing so.

I generally try to document what I post, but I can't remember where I read this, therefore no reference, sorry. I do remember reading that the disagreement between Julia and Dick literally erupted into public shouting matches on more than one occasion. The ‘split’ between the Holmes \ Petrasch camps continues to this day. Although nowadays the split is based more upon the irreconcilable differences between the two versions. That is to say, if you locate Holmes Ridge (as described) most of the clues from Bark \ Ely are not there. However, I contend that Waltz was passing out during the death bed confession (see the Holmes Manuscript) and therefore I believe that Waltz was delirious at the time he was telling Holmes where the mine was. I will also contend that if you follow Ely, you will find the “correct” Holmes ridge with everything Waltz described – except his directions (N.S.E.W.) are catty-wompas….. which I would expect from someone who is drifting in and out of consciousness, as Waltz was. I realize that makes some assumptions, so take it for what it is worth.

Best,
Ashton
I hope I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth, but I also believe I saw discussions another a forum at one time that Julia took some sort of legal measures to try to get the courts to turn the gold Dick Holmes had (from Waltz's stash) back to her. I know people have searched court records from that time and I don't believe anything ever turned up - I'll see if I can do some searching tonight and try to find out more about that story and if there was ANY documentation to back it up, or if it was just a rumor.

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by roc2rol » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:58 am

Image
the things you find on the internet
they took the gold and left the soap ?
NO--- 20 mule team operation
:lol:

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by roward » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:26 am

Ashton,
Regarding your question about whether Reiney or Holmes was with Waltz when he died, just because Ely says Reiney didn't pay close enough attention to the directions as Waltz lay dying, doesn't necessarily mean on the DAY that he died. Waltz was sick for some time after the flood, and I think Ely was simply thinking of that whole time period as being when Waltz was dying. He tried to give Reiney directions numerous times while Julia was nursing him, and I believe that's what Ely was referring to, not just the day when he died.
Bob

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:58 am

Looks like we’re back to some great conversations – thanks to all who contribute. As usual, y’all have given me some things to ponder.

The Maria Rables story (pg 165) tells of “short ladders, which stood on terraces” being in the mine - at least the mine she was at. While Sims opines this was the LDM, I’m not so sure this is the case. After thinking about what Travis wrote, I am left wondering if ladders were such a prominent feature of the LDM, why didn’t Waltz mention it to Julia and Reiney? I realize Sims didn’t get every word that Waltz said to Julia, but the ladders (as described in the mine by Rables) would be hard to overlook.

Re-reading Sims, the gold taken from the Rables mine doesn’t match the ore Waltz described or the deathbed ore. It’s possible what we have in Sims story of Maria Rables is a vague insight into one of the Gonzales Mines.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:01 pm

Bob,

Good point - and that shows how different personal interpretations of what we read leads to different conclusions. I see what you mean and it makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by coazon de oro » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:19 pm

AshtonPage wrote:Looks like we’re back to some great conversations – thanks to all who contribute. As usual, y’all have given me some things to ponder.

The Maria Rables story (pg 165) tells of “short ladders, which stood on terraces” being in the mine - at least the mine she was at. While Sims opines this was the LDM, I’m not so sure this is the case. After thinking about what Travis wrote, I am left wondering if ladders were such a prominent feature of the LDM, why didn’t Waltz mention it to Julia and Reiney? I realize Sims didn’t get every word that Waltz said to Julia, but the ladders (as described in the mine by Rables) would be hard to overlook.

Re-reading Sims, the gold taken from the Rables mine doesn’t match the ore Waltz described or the deathbed ore. It’s possible what we have in Sims story of Maria Rables is a vague insight into one of the Gonzales Mines.

Best,
Ashton
Howdy Ashton,

The Maria Rables story of short ladders which stood on terraces, would indicate the funnel shaped pit mine that was 75' across the top. I believe this is the mine Ruth was searching for with his map. I don't think he got the directions to the LDM. I don't think he ever found the funnel shaped mine because it had been covered by the Apache according to Apache Jack. Ruth had a note on him that read veni, vidi (I came, I saw) that vici (I conquered) is not on the original note as I understand. It has been posted somewhere before.

I believe that Sim's mixes the Ruth directions with the LDM directions he got from Julia and Petrasch, and others, thinking it's one and the same.

Homar

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:56 pm

I had previously posted that I believe Waltz lied to Julia and Reiney about having a partner named Weiser. I still believe Waltz never had a partner and IF I’m right, then it clears-up some of the mysteries in Sims book:

I think it’s pretty well established that Waltz was NOT in the Confederate Army, yet he told Julia that he and Weiser enlisted. IF Weiser is fictional, than the rebel cause is just part of Waltz’s story to cover for (what I believe) Waltz killing to gain possession of the mine – he just didn’t want to admit that to Julia and Reiney.

If Waltz was making up the story about Weiser, I believe that explains why he told Julia the caches were nearby the mine (Sims pg 97) BUT he also said that he rode his horse from the mine check on the caches (Sims pg 106) AND he said the caches were near the camp (Sims 103) which was a few miles from the mine.

If Barks Notes are to be believed (no comment) Waltz making up a cover story about a fictional partner would explain why Waltz said the Apache wasted ammo shooting up the camp….. something Bark did not believe the Apache would normally do. I don’t believe that ever happened, it’s just part of the ‘cover story’.

I may be wrong about Waltz being less than candid with Julia and Reiney, but if I am right that doesn’t mean that Sims book is a total wash. It simply means the parts of the story relating to Weiser are not to be believed. Things like Waltz and Weiser shooting the two Mexicans (working the mine) from the crest of a ridge. Therefore I no longer believe the mine needs to be located within shooting distance from the ridgeline…. it may not even be visible from the ridgeline.

Omitting the (I believe, fictional) Weiser portion from the Petrasch story, I’m starting to see the Holmes version and the Petrasch version dovetailing together into an (almost) coherent fashion.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:17 am

Hey Ashton,

There are too many references to Waltz having a partner for me to believe that it's untrue. There is the Dr Walker story (which has a map), the information in The Sterling legend, and even in the Holmes manuscript. Of course the Holmes version says he was a nephew, but he was still a partner. Too many references for me to ignore it.

Couple those things with the clues that mention "we" instead of "I", and it's tough for me to believe that he didn't have a partner. Just my opinion though.

Thanks
Travis

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:26 pm

Hey Travis, et al.

I see what you are saying and I believe that Waltz may well have brought in his nephew to help him – albeit after he located the mine. The point I am trying to make is that I believe Waltz LIED to Julia and Reiney about having a partner named Weiser, the two of them rescuing a wealthy Mexican with a penchant for getting suckered into ‘three card Monte’, etc.

The REASON partner Weiser matters is that IF Waltz had a partner named Weiser and the two of them shot the ‘Apache’ (who turned out to be Mexican) from the ridge – THEN the mine is of necessity within shooting distance for late 1800’s rifles (and/or possibly a shotgun). However, if Waltz was lying to Julia about Weiser, then the mine does NOT need to be within a few hundred yards of the crest of the ridge. The canyon below does NOT need to have soft dirt - soft enough to bury two bodies. IF Waltz was lying about Weiser then the canyon floor could be virtually solid rock and full of pot-holes. In other words, IF Waltz was lying about having a partner named Weiser, then the search criteria for the mine changes radically. To me, that’s substantial and worthy of serious consideration.

When I looked at the evidence, I believe it’s inescapable that there was NO partner named Weiser:

Waltz told Julia that he and partner Weiser (both agreed together) to shot two Mexicans by total mistake. Yet Waltz told Holmes that he murdered 3 Mexicans deliberately in order to claim jump the mine. So which one is it?

Waltz told Julia that he and partner Weiser got the mine legally from Peralta but he told Holmes (according to Clay’s lecture) that he deliberately did NOT want a partner when searching for the mine because Waltz believed that a lone prospector would have a better chance of evading the watchful eye of the Apache. So which one is it?

Waltz told Julia that he and partner Weiser enlisted in the Confederate Army. But there are no records of Waltz being in the CSA. So which one is it?

I could go on and on, but I believe that’s sufficient to my point. Additionally, once you kick Wesier out of the equation then the Holmes and Petrasch stories overlap. I’ve said before that if you follow Sims you will end up on (what I believe to be) Holmes Ridge. The problem I’ve always had is that the face on the ridge that looks at a symmetrical indentation, possibly indicating a covered shaft – is WAY beyond shooting distance from the ridgeline and the canyon below is literally impassible (I’ve failed more than once) and it is anything but soft dig-able dirt. Meaning that where I’m at matches up with part of the story BUT it contradicts everything necessary to comply with ‘the Weiser equation’.

HOWEVER – all of what I’ve said could simply mean that I have deluded myself into finding excuses for why Weiser doesn’t exist - merely so that I can substantiate my location.

I will be attending the rendezvous this year and I’m earnestly looking forward to meeting all of you who have positively contributed to these discussions.


All the Best,
Ashton

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