SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by silent hunter » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:08 am

Yes Wayne I have never forgot about that......I do come across as a "know it all"..I dont know everything but I do know much....I will try to be easier to chat with.....I would hike with you. Me and crew will be at this years rendezvous...

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:32 am

Ashton and Paul,

There could be another explanation for the manuscript. Brownie may not have written it as it first appeared, out of the archives. As time passed he, or his family, may have decided that it might have some value if it could be published.

Dr. Glover spent some time with the family (source for a good deal of his Holmes information) and has told me the family remembers Brownie sitting at the kitchen table (as I recall) working on the manuscript. It seems possible that Brownie took the original manuscript and was adding personal, and family, information to it.

Like Paul, I don't believe Brownie would have spilled his guts in a manuscript. Just because his physical search was over, I can't imagine he gave up all hope of sending a bird-dog into the range with the information he possessed.

If Thomas makes it to this years Rendezvous, I would guess he might be willing to discuss the subject. I have already spent a lot of time hashing over the Holmes Manuscript with him, but others may have their own questions.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by somehiker » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:46 pm

silent hunter wrote:Yes Wayne I have never forgot about that......I do come across as a "know it all"..I dont know everything but I do know much....I will try to be easier to chat with.....I would hike with you. Me and crew will be at this years rendezvous...
A hike,or climb to somewhere none of us have ever been might prove interesting.
That way,we can all get lost.... :lol:
The Rendezvous is always a good time.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by babymick1 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:22 pm

somehiker wrote:
silent hunter wrote:Yes Wayne I have never forgot about that......I do come across as a "know it all"..I dont know everything but I do know much....I will try to be easier to chat with.....I would hike with you. Me and crew will be at this years rendezvous...
A hike,or climb to somewhere none of us have ever been might prove interesting.
That way,we can all get lost.... :lol:
The Rendezvous is always a good time.

Regards:Wayne


And that would be where, OHH YEAH! THE LOST DUTCHMANS MINE
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by babymick1 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:35 pm

Image


Here's whats at the end of the rainbow, ME

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:23 am

Hehe - that's a great photo Mick

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:20 am

cubfan64 wrote:Something that always strikes me about the Holme's manuscript is that the idea of Brownie writing it himself just doesn't seem to fit what we've been told about his personality.

When it came to the Lost Dutchman, Brownie seems to be described as someone who kept his secrets very close to his vest. Other than Clay Worst, I don't know that Brownie confided those secrets to anyone else, and it's hard to say whether he even told Clay everything. So why would someone like that sit down and write a manuscript?

While it's certainly possible that he changed his mind at some point as he got older and decided he wanted to share some things publicly, why would he then deny he ever wrote it?

Something just doesn't sit well with the whole idea to me.
Hi Paul,

There were a couple of landmarks that Brownie told people he was looking for. In Glover Part 2, pg 64 & 5; “It was known that one of the things Brownie was looking for was a Rock-That-Looks-Like-A-Man, but just why he wanted it he would not tell. One day a cowboy working for Tex Barkley found a Rock-That-Looks-Like-A-Man in precisely the type of location Brownie was known to be seeking. Well, Brownie would not tell the cowboy what he knew and the cowboy was not about to tell Brownie anything unless Brownie would divulge some of his secrets.”

My point being that even before the manuscript was written Brownie told people some of the landmarks that he was searching for. Glover says this was “known”. I feel it safe to assume at least the cowboys Brownie worked with knew what these landmarks were. I would be willing to bet that when someone with Brownies history said “Hey guys, I’m looking for (whatever)” word of that spread throughout the DH community.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am

Another late night pondering the LDM…. I think I need to get a life. Whether or not you believe my theory that there was no Wesier, the fact remains that in both Sims and Holmes accounts, Waltz admitted to shooting two Mexicans at the mine. Therein is, I believe the clue to the reason for and the location of the cache. Waltz knew that at any time, relatives of the murdered Mexicans could arrive at the mine – which would pose a sticky situation in any case.

I believe it is for that very reason that Waltz mined the gold as best he could and that he cached it at some location distant from the mine. So if the Mexican relatives ever showed up at the mine, Waltz could simply ride casually past the mine and deeper into the mountains where his cache was.

Of course, one wonders why Waltz wouldn’t just keep all the gold at his house. Times were different then. It was a tight community where people knew each other. Waltz had to do something with his gold. Whether it was shipping it to the mint or using small nuggets to pay for sundry items at the local merchants, people would know about it – and I believe they did. And I believe that Waltz knew that they knew. Which makes stashing the bulk of the gold under the bed (or burying it in your front yard) a bad idea.

I think it is stated somewhere in Sims that Herman was perplexed by “Reiney’s imperfect recollection” of Waltz’s instructions. When we remember that Waltz initially told Reiney how to find the mine, I believe that after the flood Waltz was telling Reiney how to find the cache – after all, it was the cache that they were going to retrieve with Waltz. However, Julia and Reiney were searching for the mine and (I believe) following and\or mixing in the directions to the cache – which I believe is a good distance from the mine.

I also have to wonder if the mine is actually covered as Holmes describes. Nowhere in Sims does Waltz mention to Julia and Reiney that they will have to dig through several feet of dirt and timbers and then avoid a trap set “that will easily kill anyone who enters the mine” – as Holmes describes. Also, when Julia asks Waltz; “Grandpa, ain’t you afraid that cowboys’ll find the mine?” (page 108) Waltz says absolutely nothing of covering the mine so thoroughly that you could drive a team of horses over it or any such thing. I still follow Sims (less the Weiser portion) and I believe that Waltz never covered the mine.

See you at the Rendezvous,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Sat May 05, 2012 5:51 am

Glover (pg 312) “Walker – Weedin map. Ely and Barks contention that Weedin’s wife destroyed this map was a misdirection by them. The present understanding is that Weedin traced Walker’s map, then a blueline print was made of the tracing for Bark…”
In 1946, Ely sent a copy of the Weedin map to Erwin Ruth – Glover pg 314.

My point being is that Ely did possess a blueline print (a 1900’s equivalent of a modern photocopy) of the map tracing that Weedin made. However, on page 49 of his book, Ely tells his readers when Weedin went to get the map for him (this is a first person account) the map had disappeared and later on Weedin’s daughter confides in Ely (another first person account) that she believed her mother had destroyed the map to prevent Weedin from going into the Superstitions.

That’s a rather odd account coming from the very man who sent a copy of the ‘nonexistent map’ to Erwin Ruth 18 years before his book was published.

Am I missing something here? Apparently this is common knowledge and I’m just the last guy to piece the puzzle together. At this point, I’m wondering if I can believe anything in Ely’s book and I’m thinking about placing it in the same credibility factor as “The Bark Notes”.


Best,
Ashton

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Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Sat May 05, 2012 7:00 am

AshtonPage wrote:Glover (pg 312) “Walker – Weedin map. Ely and Barks contention that Weedin’s wife destroyed this map was a misdirection by them. The present understanding is that Weedin traced Walker’s map, then a blueline print was made of the tracing for Bark…”
In 1946, Ely sent a copy of the Weedin map to Erwin Ruth – Glover pg 314.

My point being is that Ely did possess a blueline print (a 1900’s equivalent of a modern photocopy) of the map tracing that Weedin made. However, on page 49 of his book, Ely tells his readers when Weedin went to get the map for him (this is a first person account) the map had disappeared and later on Weedin’s daughter confides in Ely (another first person account) that she believed her mother had destroyed the map to prevent Weedin from going into the Superstitions.

That’s a rather odd account coming from the very man who sent a copy of the ‘nonexistent map’ to Erwin Ruth 18 years before his book was published.

Am I missing something here? Apparently this is common knowledge and I’m just the last guy to piece the puzzle together. At this point, I’m wondering if I can believe anything in Ely’s book and I’m thinking about placing it in the same credibility factor as “The Bark Notes”.


Best,
Ashton

Ashton,

Now you see why I only took the "clues" out of those writings and didnt pay too much attention to the rest of it.....

We need to remember that they were Dutchhunters. They werent going to give away anything that they thought might be significant.

Now, what this should tell you is that Waltz really did have a partner. If not, then why the deception from Ely? It's because it was a legit clue.

Thanks,
Travis

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