THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

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Jim Hatt

Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:38 pm

Thanks for the references Mike. That explains it, (I never even thought about Glover's book with the same title).

I have never read Glover's version of the Holmes Manuscript. (Part 2 of the Golden Dream). Don't even own a copy, so I can't look up your references myself.
gollum wrote:
Glover posits that Dick must have followed Waltz sometime about 1880. Kind of hard if he didn't meet him until 1888.

Waltz last being at his mine in 1884 pg. 45

The manuscript also states that Waltz was last at his mine during the winter of 1892.
By "the manuscript" I am assuming you mean "Glover's book" (Part 2 of the Golden Dream) rather than the "Holmes manuscript"? (We have to keep these two sources separated when referring to them)

I think either you or Glover made a typo there, because Waltz died in 1891... or is that one of the things you were trying to point out?

As you have pointed out. A lot of people believe there are as many direct contradictions in Glover's book on the manuscript, as there are in the original manuscript itself. The old "Garbage in, Garbage out" syndrome... expanded from a small manuscript, into a whole book.

Best,

Jim

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:40 pm

Jim,

Glover even mentions that the 1892 date is not possible because he died in October 1891. He states that the timeline doesn't exactly match, but he makes excuses for the issues.

An exact quote from the manuscript (in Glover's Book) states that "Waltz made his last trip into the mine in the winter of 1891-1892." (pg. 44) Not exactly what Glover stated, but still not possible if he was gravely ill for many months prior to his death in October 1891.

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:11 pm

Gottchya Mike!

I may to have to pick up a copy of The Golden Dream Part 2, just to be able to look up things when you guys are quoting from it.

Thanks,

Jim

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Turgon » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:55 pm

Jim Hatt wrote:Gottchya Mike!

I may to have to pick up a copy of The Golden Dream Part 2, just to be able to look up things when you guys are quoting from it.

Thanks,

Jim
Hi Guys.

Actually the best way to look something up is through Google Books. Here is a link to The Golden Dream Part 2 (Holme's Manuscript) of Glover's book. Not all the text is there but most of it is. Even what isn't there is still searchable. It's not the same as having the book but it sure speeds things up. Corbin's Bible is on-line also.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JlVQgf ... &q&f=false

And don't get me wrong. I believe in buying books that authors put their hard work into. It's just a quick and easy way to look things up.

Best,
Kevin

Jim Hatt

Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:25 am

Great link Kevin!
Thanks for sharing it!

Best,

Jim

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by froggy » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as I read up on this, ‘The Holmes Manuscript’, I have to ask: Did Richard J. ‘Dick’ Holmes speak or understand German? If Helena (Julia?) Thomas and Rhineheart (Rhiney) Petrasch had a hard time with understanding a dieing German what about Holmes?
Keep on looking
Mike

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:13 pm

Hi Mike,

Actually, your question brings to light a very intriguing point – which is: Whom did Waltz believe he was speaking to when he gave the death-bed confession? I think the jury’s still out on that one and I’m kinda on the fence myself. Your question does push me more towards the thinking that Waltz knew he was speaking to Dick Holmes.

If Waltz thought he was speaking to Dick Holmes, I would presume that he spoke in English. Problem solved.

However, if Waltz believed he that was talking to Reiney, then Waltz would have (most probably) spoken Swabian German. As Glover points out, Swabian dialect can be difficult for other Germanic people to understand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_German

So even if Holmes understood German, the question becomes - did Holmes understand Swabian German? The more I think about this, the more interesting it becomes.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:17 pm

Hello all,

Waltz spoke English, and to anyone that follows Ely and Bark, that shouldnt even be a question.

I personally believe it's a "no-brainer" that Waltz knew he was talking to Dick Holmes. I don't believe Dick spoke German, let alone Swabian German. That is why Dick Holmes received the directions in English. Now, you guys know that I don't believe the "crap" in the Manuscript that surrounds the directions and clues, but I do believe the directions and clues were real. And I believe they were given to Dick, in English. If Waltz thought he was talking to Rhiney, he most likely would have given them in German, just like he had been doing for months.

How can I be so sure? Because if you follow Ely or Bark, then you most likely believe that Waltz and Weiser were prospecting in Mexico, and stumbled on to the property of Peralta looking to water the animals. If Waltz only spoke German, how would he have been able to communicate with the Mexicans? I seriously doubt that the Mexicans spoke German. So there had to be a common language spoken between them. In my mind, that had to be English. It just makes too much sense.

So when Waltz sat with Rhiney and Julia and told them the stories/clues, they spoke in Swabian German, a language that was common to all three of them. But, when he spoke Holmes, he spoke in English, just like he did with the Mexicans.

Just my opinion and of course, I could be wrong.

Thanks again,
Travis

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:56 am

Jim Hatt wrote: Something that supports my theory, and has always bothered me, is that the Holmes manuscript says that, Holmes had once tried to follow Waltz to his mine. Waltz discovered that he was being followed and knew who his pursuer was. The directions in the manuscript.. First Water to Second Water...... etc, etc, etc believed by many (and myself) to eventually end up in the area of Tortilla Flat on the Apache Trail, (which is the same general area where Holmes had followed Waltz to). If Waltz knew he was talking to Holmes on his deathbed. Why didn't his directions to the mine begin with.... "Dick, starting from the place you followed me to near Tortilla Flat......... ? Why start at First Water and wind all the way through the mountains to Tortilla Flat?
Hi Jim,

You're not the only one wondering about those directions.

One possibility Waltz may have said that is because going from First Water and continuing through Second Water (in that order) then places you in the proper position on what JW called the Old San Carlos Trail to find the proper “where the trail turns south” location. If you just took the Old San Carlos Trail from (wherever) then you would end up searching every ridge in every place where the trail takes a turn.

I am saying there is more than one place where the trail turns south; therefore entering from First Water then going to Second Water may not be the most direct route, but it is the most foolproof. I am not claiming that to be correct, I only claim that it is a possibility as to WHY Waltz would say that. If indeed he ever said that to begin with.

Best,
Ashton

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:41 pm

I just finished watching Clay Worst’s DVD of the LDM. Interesting to say the least, especially for someone like me who has followed Sims Ely, almost exclusively. I read Holmes (Glover’s versions) before but I always took it with a grain of salt because the Holmes Manuscript seemed to be blatantly exaggerated. But Clay makes a decent case for the Holmes version. So the problem persists; how can one reconcile the Holmes vs. Ely stories?

Listening to the Holmes version, Waltz is portrayed as a trigger happy, shoot-em-up kinda guy who murdered three Mexican miners so he could take the mine from them - but in Ely’s version Waltz is a compassionate Good Samaritan who saves a stranger from a crooked gambling game to (eventually) get the mine. Yes, in Ely’s version Waltz did tell Julia and Reiney that he and his partner Weiser shot two Mexicans working the mine, but Waltz and his partner believed it was an honest (?) mistake because they thought they were shooting Apache.

While listening to Clay, it occurred to me (assuming that Holmes was telling the truth) that Waltz simply didn’t want to tell his friends, Julia and Reiney that he committed murder in order to get possession of the mine. I know that I’m guessing, but it makes sense – it also accounts for other discrepancies in the Holmes \ Ely accounts; like Waltz being in the Confederate Army (he wasn’t). If I’m correct, that means that the Peralta story is made up - as is Waltz’s partner, Jacob Weiser. And if that’s the case, then the Weedin map could have come from any miner, partner of Waltz or not, but the shoe seemed to fit back in the day of Bark and Ely, so it blends into the story about Waltz saying that he had a partner. I know I’m making lots of assumptions here, but if I’m right about all this, we can scratch the Weedin map because it might lead somewhere, but it almost certainly does not lead to the LDM. Not that I’m a big fan of treasure maps in the first place, but you see where I’m going.

I realize that this forum is specifically dedicated to NOT making a bunch of wild guesses, so I apologize for making these unfounded assumptions. But to me, this is the first thing that makes sense regarding how Holmes and Ely could be so vastly different and at the same time both could be an ‘accurate’ recounting of what Waltz said.

Best,
Ashton

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