THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:29 am

AshtonPage wrote:I just finished watching Clay Worst’s DVD of the LDM. Interesting to say the least, especially for someone like me who has followed Sims Ely, almost exclusively. I read Holmes (Glover’s versions) before but I always took it with a grain of salt because the Holmes Manuscript seemed to be blatantly exaggerated. But Clay makes a decent case for the Holmes version. So the problem persists; how can one reconcile the Holmes vs. Ely stories?

Listening to the Holmes version, Waltz is portrayed as a trigger happy, shoot-em-up kinda guy who murdered three Mexican miners so he could take the mine from them - but in Ely’s version Waltz is a compassionate Good Samaritan who saves a stranger from a crooked gambling game to (eventually) get the mine. Yes, in Ely’s version Waltz did tell Julia and Reiney that he and his partner Weiser shot two Mexicans working the mine, but Waltz and his partner believed it was an honest (?) mistake because they thought they were shooting Apache.

While listening to Clay, it occurred to me (assuming that Holmes was telling the truth) that Waltz simply didn’t want to tell his friends, Julia and Reiney that he committed murder in order to get possession of the mine. I know that I’m guessing, but it makes sense – it also accounts for other discrepancies in the Holmes \ Ely accounts; like Waltz being in the Confederate Army (he wasn’t). If I’m correct, that means that the Peralta story is made up - as is Waltz’s partner, Jacob Weiser. And if that’s the case, then the Weedin map could have come from any miner, partner of Waltz or not, but the shoe seemed to fit back in the day of Bark and Ely, so it blends into the story about Waltz saying that he had a partner. I know I’m making lots of assumptions here, but if I’m right about all this, we can scratch the Weedin map because it might lead somewhere, but it almost certainly does not lead to the LDM. Not that I’m a big fan of treasure maps in the first place, but you see where I’m going.

I realize that this forum is specifically dedicated to NOT making a bunch of wild guesses, so I apologize for making these unfounded assumptions. But to me, this is the first thing that makes sense regarding how Holmes and Ely could be so vastly different and at the same time both could be an ‘accurate’ recounting of what Waltz said.

Best,
Ashton

Ashton,

After hearing his lecture, I believe Clay told the story exactly how he heard it from Brownie, and I believe Brownie told the story exactly like he heard it from Dick Holmes.....I just don't believe Dick told the truth.

Dick's story portrays Waltz as a killer who has almost no reguard for human life. But, the story has a serious "hole" in it for me, right when they start telling it. If Waltz was a stone cold killer, why did he NEVER FIRE A SHOT at the Indians who attacked him? They only had Bows and Arrows..... You have to remember that Waltz hadnt found the mine yet. So Dick is telling us that Waltz was a killer, but he let three Indians with no guns run him off from EVERYTHING he owned in the world (except his gun), and he didnt even TRY to fight them off....??? Doesnt sound like a killer to me.

Another huge mistake I have with Dick's story is that he ask's Waltz "how much is left?", when Waltz is giving him the directions. I've written my theory on this before. I believe Waltz did tell Dick the directions/clues to the mine that we see in the manuscript. BUT....Dick was supposed to SHARE THE MINE with Julia and Rhiney..... I'll explain why I believe this.

BEFORE Waltz got sick, he was giving Julia and Rhiney directions/clues to the mine. Also BEFORE he got sick, Waltz realized that they would never find it by themselves, because they were greenhorns, so he decided he would take them himself.
THEN Waltz got sick from the flood, and KNEW he would not be able to go. On his deathbed, in walks Dick Holmes.....An avid outdoorsman, military man, and he came from a mining family.....What a perfect person to take Julia and Rhiney out to look for the mine!

So Waltz gives Holmes a "quicker/shorter" version of the directions, with the idea that Dick would SHARE the mine with Julia and Rhiney. THAT is the main reason Dick asks "how much is left?". If I were to be dying and say "Ashton, I have a rich gold mine in those mountains, and I want you ALONE to have it". There is NO WAY you're going to ask me how much is left. Why would you care? You're about to get a FREE GOLD MINE. BUT.....if I said "Ashton, I want you to SHARE this goldmine with 2 other people", THEN you may ask, "How much is left?".

I still believe Holmes' directions are 100% real, I just think he made up the "garbage" around those directions because he got greedy. He had directions to the mine, straight from Waltz, and decided he didnt have to share.

Of course, this is only my personal version of the story, but I still believe this is what happened. There are just too many "holes" in the story........They just never found the correct "hole".....

Thanks,
Travis

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:30 am

Travis,

There are so many holes in the Holmes Manuscript that you would be hard pressed to find the random scrap of truth. The very fact that Brownie denied he wrote it, right up to his death, is one of the biggest red flags.

I have always believed that Dick made up the deathbed confession to justify his taking the Waltz gold from under the bed. He knew Waltz had a mine, but could not tell his son the truth, because it would brand him a common thief. Brownie believed his fathers story, and told it to his best friend.......Clay Worst, who also believed it.

Thomas tells us that he talked to members of Brownie's family and they told him they had seen Brownie working on the manuscript. My guess is that he was adding the family history, along with his own search efforts to the "deathbed confession", reasoning that it would make the story more believable and sellable. Like many LDM stories, making money from book sales was what it was all about.

Remember that Brownie, unable to locate the mine from his father's story, eventually started a methodical search starting with the main mountain and working his way across the range northeastward. I believe he did that because they knew where Julia and Rhiney started their search......Likely at the bottom of Hog Canyon, rather than where they ended up.
That might be considered the "best evidence" for later searchers.

Of course that matches up with my own theories, so it makes for an interesting chain of coincidental evidence that might point to the southwestern part of the range. That and five buck will get me an average cup of coffee these days. :roll:

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:18 pm

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Travis,

There are so many holes in the Holmes Manuscript that you would be hard pressed to find the random scrap of truth. The very fact that Brownie denied he wrote it, right up to his death, is one of the biggest red flags.

I have always believed that Dick made up the deathbed confession to justify his taking the Waltz gold from under the bed. He knew Waltz had a mine, but could not tell his son the truth, because it would brand him a common thief. Brownie believed his fathers story, and told it to his best friend.......Clay Worst, who also believed it.

Thomas tells us that he talked to members of Brownie's family and they told him they had seen Brownie working on the manuscript. My guess is that he was adding the family history, along with his own search efforts to the "deathbed confession", reasoning that it would make the story more believable and sellable. Like many LDM stories, making money from book sales was what it was all about.

Remember that Brownie, unable to locate the mine from his father's story, eventually started a methodical search starting with the main mountain and working his way across the range northeastward. I believe he did that because they knew where Julia and Rhiney started their search......Likely at the bottom of Hog Canyon, rather than where they ended up.
That might be considered the "best evidence" for later searchers.

Of course that matches up with my own theories, so it makes for an interesting chain of coincidental evidence that might point to the southwestern part of the range. That and five buck will get me an average cup of coffee these days. :roll:

Good luck,

Joe
Hey Joe,

I agree with you that Dick was lying, there is no way around that in my opinion. We just disagree on what he lied about. I still firmly believe, based on my own research and findings in the mountains, that Dick received real directions to Waltz' mine. I took the italicized words in the Holmes versions, and those words to me sounded like something that a dying man could get out in a short amount of time. And those are the ONLY things in the mountains that have proved to be real, when it pertains to what Dick Holmes said, according to the Manuscript.

One other thing that makes me think that SOME of the things in the Holmes Manuscript are true is the fact that Dick Holmes went straight to the Tortilla Spring area when he first went out to search.....I firmly believe that he followed Waltz when he was younger.....I just think that Waltz KNEW that he was being followed, and led the young Holmes to a different place. If Dick Holmes would have partnered with Julia and Rhiney, which was Waltz' wish, I believe they could have combined, and found the mine.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Glad to see you posting over here Joe!
Travis

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:21 pm

Travis,

"I agree with you that Dick was lying, there is no way around that in my opinion. We just disagree on what he lied about. I still firmly believe, based on my own research and findings in the mountains, that Dick received real directions to Waltz' mine. I took the italicized words in the Holmes versions, and those words to me sounded like something that a dying man could get out in a short amount of time. And those are the ONLY things in the mountains that have proved to be real, when it pertains to what Dick Holmes said, according to the Manuscript.

One other thing that makes me think that SOME of the things in the Holmes Manuscript are true is the fact that Dick Holmes went straight to the Tortilla Spring area when he first went out to search.....I firmly believe that he followed Waltz when he was younger.....I just think that Waltz KNEW that he was being followed, and led the young Holmes to a different place. If Dick Holmes would have partnered with Julia and Rhiney, which was Waltz' wish, I believe they could have combined, and found the mine.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Glad to see you posting over here Joe!
Travis"

First, thank you for that last sentiment. I am glad to be back. My thanks to Jim B. as well.

Once I concluded that Dick Holmes had lied, including to his son Brownie, the rest of the story became fiction for me. (Just a personal opinion).

I agree that finding things in the mountains that match up to the clues found in the manuscript are convincing, I would remind you that (almost) an entire book was filled with such "evidence". Once Bob found out the truth about that "evidence" he removed every book, that he could, from sale.

I also wrote a very convincing (fictional) treasure tale over on TNet. It was historically and geographically accurate, but the treasure part of the tale was pure fiction. I eventually confessed to the ruse, but had a number of people who were checking out the history and terrain (somewhat) convinced it was a true story. None of the "evidence" I presented could be found to be false........because it was all true.

There are some very convincing liars out there.

Take care,

Joe

The above is just my opinion as well.

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:35 pm

Hi Guys,

I echo Travis’ sentiment – it’s good to have you contributing over here, Joe.

While Brownie himself “denounced” the Holmes Manuscript saying that “he had never seen it before” (Glover viii) but the kicker in that escapade is that while listening to Clay’s presentation, I realized that whoever wrote the Holmes Manuscript got a boatload of information (either directly or indirectly) from Brownie - as there’s nowhere else that info could have come from. In other words, The Holmes Manuscript and what Brownie told Clay had a lot of identical elements. Additionally, I am not the only one who believes that ‘Holmes Ridge’, complete with the round ruin of Indian rocks, may actually exist. I’m the first to admit that Holmes Ridge as described in the manuscript, could easily be any number of ridges where the author of the manuscript (whoever that was) simply went into the hills and just wrote down what he saw from that arbitrary location. Of course, the problem persists that there are way too many holes in the Holmes Manuscript for it to be taken in its entirety and we don’t (at least I don’t) know when or where the manuscript is accurate and when it’s not.

One of the more interesting things that Clay talked about on the DVD was that Waltz told Holmes to do what was right and share the mine with Julia and Reiney– that came from Brownie (at least that’s how I understood what Clay said). This vindicates Travis’ theory that Waltz told Holmes to share the mine. According to Clay, the candle box of ore was to grub-stake Holmes as he searched for the mine. The fact that Holmes never partnered with Julia and Reiney indicates to me that Holmes decided to keep the mine to himself. If I am right about that, one has to wonder if Holmes can be trusted with anything.

Speaking of the Holmes Manuscript being full of holes -> I wonder if anybody knows what the ‘missing directions’ are in the Holmes Manuscript (pg 60-61) where is says “Here he gave directions to the mine”. Interestingly, on page 88 Dick tells Brownie if he ever does locate the rock house……..“pace it (the mine) off as I have described to you”. That tells me the mine is located by pacing it off from the rock house - therefore you would NOT come back out of the canyon, as the Holmes Mss tells you to do. I’m sure others have come to this same impasse – anybody out there know what the ‘missing directions’ are?

Best,
Ashton

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:46 am

Ashton,

My very first post on the Lost Dutchman was asking if the "missing directions" were public knowledge. It has been just over a year since I started reading on this subject, and I have never been able to find those.

Do they exist? I believe they do, but the person or people that know them are probably never going to let them out. I can't blame them, I wouldn't give them out either. I believe Brownie left them out of the manuscript on purpose, so whoever found the Rock House would come and get him to help with the discovery. Pretty smart on his part to leave that part out.

I do however think that SOME of those "pacing measurements" are public knowledge. There is a clue, and forgive me if I don't quote this 100% accurate as I am away from my notes, that says "250 to 300 feet from the gravestone marker designates a specific crevass one has to pass (through?) to locate the mine. I personally believe this "gravestone marker" is something Waltz made for Wieser.

There is another measurement that came from Ruth, and it's not the "200' across from the cave" clue. It's the one that says "39 steps to auga, 69 steps to the mine". If a "step" equals roughly 3 feet, then "69 steps" would be about 207'......

I believe you hit the "Tunnel" at around 200', and the "Crevasse" you go through is another 60' (roughly).

So we fo have a couple of measurements, but the question is are they enough? I guess the rock house should be the first priority in someones search, because most stories seem to base a lot of emphasis on it.

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Hi All,

Been reading the Holmes Manuscript again. I’m surprised at the things I pick up on that I completely missed before. I suppose the old saying is true that you can only find what you are looking for.

Waltz is often quoted as saying; “no miner (or cowboy) will ever find the mine”. Some have speculated as to WHY nobody will find the mine. I believe the Holmes Manuscript answers the question of why:
On page 61 -> “………the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector will never be able to find it *because* there’s no ledge in view.”

Apparently, Waltz outdid himself in concealing the mine.

The oft asked about ‘Military Trail’ -> pg 58 Waltz talking "… and taking ONE of the old Government trails (plural) which crossed the river at that point and then following it into the Superstitions.” (emphasis mine). According to Holmes’ version – there are multiple trails in the Superstitions that Waltz referred to as ‘Military trails’ or ‘Government Trails’. IF I’m right about that, then having a “military map” would only eliminate some of the potential areas. Additionally, there could easily be that one trail in the Superstitions that got missed by the map maker for the US Army. Meaning that following a map could lead you down the wrong lane. I’m not saying for a fact that it does, I’m saying not to put all your clues into one basket.

Also interesting to note is that Dick Holmes spent five years (!) looking for “one object and one object only” -> TRTLLAM. On page 71 “If he (Dick) could only find that ONE landmark, the rest would be easy….”
I’ve said before that I think the reason TRTAALM was never found is because (I believe) it’s a sun-sign.

The next one is a bit of a stretch, but it makes sense (to me anyway). Some say that Waltz never told Holmes to “go in at First Water”. We’ve had that discussion here on DUSA because going in at First Water doesn’t make sense, it’s the long way around. However, for the sake of argument if we assume that TRTLLAM is a sun-sign, then it’s possible (please note I only said it’s a possibility) that following those convoluted directions of going in at First Water would have put Holmes in the general area and at the proper time to be able to see the sun-sign.

Hope to see y’all at the rendezvous,
Ashton

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Matthew Roberts » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:38 pm

Ashton,

Which version of the "Holmes Manuscript" are you referring to ?
The Frederick Higham version, or the version that appears in T.Glover's book about Brownie Holmes and the Holmes Manuscript ?

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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by Matthew Roberts » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:44 pm

Image

Here is a photo of an 1870 army map of the Superstition mountain's area. The army called them the Salt River Mts. in 1870.

Find Fort McDowell on the map.
Look to the right and find Cottonwood C. ( Cottonwood canyon)
Find the Rio Salado or Salt River.
Look directly below the Salt River and you will see 3 military trails going through the Superstitions. One on either side of Cottonwood canyon.
Waltz was said to have killed his nephew at Agua Escondido (Hidden Water) in Cottonwood canyon and often used the route that crossed the Salt river from the north to enter the Superstition mountains.

Matthew
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Re: THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Post by AshtonPage » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:11 pm

Hi Matthew,

I was quoting Glover's version.

All,
Wen page says "you do not have permission to view file attachments". So I can't see the photo of the map. Don't know if others are having the same problem. let me know if you are and I'll notify the forum admin.

Thanks,

Ashton

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