GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Moderator: Jim_b
Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Ashton,
I have been inclined to agree with what Paul has said, which is why I never actively searched for the LDM......on my own. On the other hand, I have tried to learn as much as I can on the history of the LDM, as many people have asked for my advice and even help in their own search. My uncle and his partners being in that category.
I have a hard time believing that Waltz lied to Julia and Rhiney concerning the source of his gold. He had to know the danger of sending two greenhorns into the Superstition's and they were, after all, the friends who stuck with him to the end of his days.
Brownie ended up starting a systematic search at the top of the main mountain ridge above the area where Julia and Rhiney first attempted to enter the range. I believe they were followed to Hog Canyon. They were trying to follow the same directions that P.C Bicknell later wrote in his newspaper article which Adolph Ruth (also) tried to follow. It's interesting to note that Bic' camped at Willow Spring in 1886.
It would seem that no one has been able to find Waltz's mine by following this (what I consider) best evidence. These days, many Dutch Hunters are following new evidence, clues and questionable Waltz quotes. Every natural landmark and man made (found) artifact is being used to bolster their theories.
In the end, they may very well be on the correct trail. Each year, someone else goes quiet on the wonderful clues they have found in the mountains. No doubt they are all busy spending LDM gold.
Good Luck, and take care,
Joe
I have been inclined to agree with what Paul has said, which is why I never actively searched for the LDM......on my own. On the other hand, I have tried to learn as much as I can on the history of the LDM, as many people have asked for my advice and even help in their own search. My uncle and his partners being in that category.
I have a hard time believing that Waltz lied to Julia and Rhiney concerning the source of his gold. He had to know the danger of sending two greenhorns into the Superstition's and they were, after all, the friends who stuck with him to the end of his days.
Brownie ended up starting a systematic search at the top of the main mountain ridge above the area where Julia and Rhiney first attempted to enter the range. I believe they were followed to Hog Canyon. They were trying to follow the same directions that P.C Bicknell later wrote in his newspaper article which Adolph Ruth (also) tried to follow. It's interesting to note that Bic' camped at Willow Spring in 1886.
It would seem that no one has been able to find Waltz's mine by following this (what I consider) best evidence. These days, many Dutch Hunters are following new evidence, clues and questionable Waltz quotes. Every natural landmark and man made (found) artifact is being used to bolster their theories.
In the end, they may very well be on the correct trail. Each year, someone else goes quiet on the wonderful clues they have found in the mountains. No doubt they are all busy spending LDM gold.
Good Luck, and take care,
Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Hi Joe
I have couple questions
Was Bicknell article the first written public account of the LDM?
Or was it the report that Julia went into the mountains to search for gold?
When was the first written public account?
Would the legend have been built with out Julia’s account?
Guess what I’m asking: was there enough general interest
in the Phoenix community, without the deathbed account,
to perpetuate the legend ?
I realize the latter question is somewhat vague to answer
Thanks
Ed
I have couple questions
Was Bicknell article the first written public account of the LDM?
Or was it the report that Julia went into the mountains to search for gold?
When was the first written public account?
Would the legend have been built with out Julia’s account?
Guess what I’m asking: was there enough general interest
in the Phoenix community, without the deathbed account,
to perpetuate the legend ?
I realize the latter question is somewhat vague to answer
Thanks
Ed
Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Ed,roc2rol wrote:Hi Joe
I have couple questions
Was Bicknell article the first written public account of the LDM?
Or was it the report that Julia went into the mountains to search for gold?
When was the first written public account?
Would the legend have been built with out Julia’s account?
Guess what I’m asking: was there enough general interest
in the Phoenix community, without the deathbed account,
to perpetuate the legend ?
I realize the latter question is somewhat vague to answer
Thanks
Ed
I'm at the store, so I don't have the Bicknell article close at hand. Your questions have been asked, and answered, before but I don't recall the exact answers.
I believe the first written mention of Waltz's mine came just after Julia and Rhiney started their search's. Waltz was not mentioned by name. Without Julia's story, I doubt their would be anyone searching for the LDM.
As I mentioned, Bicknell was camped at Willow Spring in 1886 and wrote an article which never mentioned Waltz or his mine. You could theorize that he was gathering information for the article he would write at a later date. At that early date, he could not be following a Julia Thomas story, so it seems possible that Julia was following Bic's story rather than anything she heard from Waltz.
It seems a little too coincidental that Bic' was camped on the trail that he described in the Ruth note, and the S.F. newspaper article, in 1886. He later swapped ends of the range, and searched the east side. By another strange coincidence, he was looking in the area of the pit mine that was reopened and worked out in the late 1990s.
As you study this legend, you will notice how all of the stories and legends seem to form a connecting web.
Just one man's opinion.
Take care,
Joe
- cubfan64
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Joe and Ed - If Bicknell wasn't following up on something he learned from Julia, what would have been his motivation for being in the Superstitions at all? When did the Jacobs & Ludi story first come out I wonder?
I need to go back and start putting some dates together and try to figure out what prompted Bicknell to explore the Superstitions for an old mine or treasures to start with.
I need to go back and start putting some dates together and try to figure out what prompted Bicknell to explore the Superstitions for an old mine or treasures to start with.
Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Paul,
As you probably know, most of the Apache were shipped out of Arizona in 1886. In spite of that, there were continued attacks on settlers up to 1906.
A lone camper in the Superstitions would probably not be sleeping all that well in 1886. It would be interesting to know Bic's motivation for being there.
Take care,
Joe
As you probably know, most of the Apache were shipped out of Arizona in 1886. In spite of that, there were continued attacks on settlers up to 1906.
A lone camper in the Superstitions would probably not be sleeping all that well in 1886. It would be interesting to know Bic's motivation for being there.
Take care,
Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
[quote="cubfan64"]Joe and Ed - If Bicknell wasn't following up on something he learned from Julia, what would have been his motivation for being in the Superstitions at all?
Cabfan64
First and formost Bicknell was a reporter! and a hobby treasure hunter second, who knows maybe he followed waltz himself into that area or recieved some tips from others. Hard to say but for some reason he believed he was close, when waltz died he paid Julia to share what she new and tried to link up the clues.
Babymick1
Cabfan64
First and formost Bicknell was a reporter! and a hobby treasure hunter second, who knows maybe he followed waltz himself into that area or recieved some tips from others. Hard to say but for some reason he believed he was close, when waltz died he paid Julia to share what she new and tried to link up the clues.
Babymick1
Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
BMick,
"when waltz died he paid Julia to share what she new and tried to link up the clues."
Can you share your source for that information?
Many thanks,
Joe
"when waltz died he paid Julia to share what she new and tried to link up the clues."
Can you share your source for that information?
Many thanks,
Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Joe,
I can,t recall what story I read it in, I think it was news clip written by bicknell him self. but the story goes something like this, He offer Julia and Rhiney some money but Rhiney wanted nothing to do with it but Julia was broke and selling maps at the time so she jumped at the money and a 20 percent share. something like that.
Babymick1
I can,t recall what story I read it in, I think it was news clip written by bicknell him self. but the story goes something like this, He offer Julia and Rhiney some money but Rhiney wanted nothing to do with it but Julia was broke and selling maps at the time so she jumped at the money and a 20 percent share. something like that.
Babymick1
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
Hello,
I read an article by Tom Kollenborn that say's that Bicknell was known to search in the Superstitions for the "Doc Thorne Mine", the "Lost Soldiers Mine", and the "Lost Frenchmans Mine". It also says that Bicknell only became interested in Waltz' story AFTER Waltz had died.
I'm not sure who/what Tom's source was, but maybe that's why Bicknell was camped in there in 1886? He may not have been looking for the Lost Dutchman yet.
Thanks,
Travis
I read an article by Tom Kollenborn that say's that Bicknell was known to search in the Superstitions for the "Doc Thorne Mine", the "Lost Soldiers Mine", and the "Lost Frenchmans Mine". It also says that Bicknell only became interested in Waltz' story AFTER Waltz had died.
I'm not sure who/what Tom's source was, but maybe that's why Bicknell was camped in there in 1886? He may not have been looking for the Lost Dutchman yet.
Thanks,
Travis
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM
I believe you are right there Dirty dutchman
Bicknell would write about his adventure,s and sell them to mags and newspapers, when he passed he had acouple million in the bank. Thats whole lot of gringo!
Babymick1
Bicknell would write about his adventure,s and sell them to mags and newspapers, when he passed he had acouple million in the bank. Thats whole lot of gringo!
Babymick1