GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

[cubfan64]

Ashton - I've been involved in a few discussions on different forums about the gold ore as well. One of the things everyone agreed to is that there's absolutely no way anyone can look at the matchbox and related jewelry supposedly made from Waltz's gold and make ANY kind of accurate guess as to the overall richness of the his mine.

It's completely understandable that a person would choose the absolute richest and "prettiest" ore samples to have jewelry made from it.

I don't know much about Mitchell's sources, but (at least to me) I can draw absolutely no conclusion about Waltz's gold source as a whole other than to say there AT LEAST rich portions that looked like the matchbox.

I often find myself wondering why Waltz didn't have more gold to show for his efforts as well. This is a man who as far as we can tell prospected for a living at least part of his life (Bradshaws). Why would he find such a phenomenally rich gold mine and not get everything he could out of it? There are claims that he had family he wanted to pass on money to help, stories that he wanted to help Julia, etc...

Sure one can make the argument that he was old, afraid of indian attacks, etc..., but I still wonder as to how much of the "legend" has grown and grown well beyond the truth.

[roc2rol]

I'm writing this off the cuff
but how the legend grew with such a scarcity of gold
is quite phenomon!

Yet I do believe Waltz flashed gold ore about town
at various times that built the legend
What was the source ?
Highgraded ?
Nah !
No! there was a shadow source !
and like everything else in this legend
impossible to prove
but I have a feasible theory....
roc

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Roc,

I don't believe the LDM Legend had any documented evidence for its existence until after Waltz's death. Once it got started, it acquired a life of its own. Suddenly everyone knew the loaner, and was aware of his gold mine. I call it the "Hell I Was There" syndrome.

That quote is from the title of Elmer Keith's book. In the gun world, hell, he was there.

To illustrate this point, I only need to go back to the age of 13 and see how much the legend has grown since then. New evidence seems to come out daily. Much of it is just old stories being rehashed by newbies to the game.

"Evidence" is being created much faster than in the past. Some of it is to bolster someone's reputation, and some (a lot) of it is in preparation for an upcoming book.

Many new books have been delayed by serious researchers exposing the truth, and real facts that are keeping it.....real. I take some pride in being one of the researcher who has been part of some of that exposure.

People are still dying looking for Jacob's mine. The least we can do is try and keep them from searching for something that we know has no basis in fact.

Take care,

Joe

[Dirty Dutchman]

Paul,

I'm sure you've heard my theory on why Waltz never claimed the mine before, but i'll post it again just in case anyone else cares.

It's my opinion there are two possible reasons.

The first one I believe is the real reason. (Although the second one could very well tie in also)

1) Waltz and Weiser made a deal with Peralta. They mined out 60K in gold and returned to Mexico. Peralta wanted to keep the 60K, minus some expense money for the two Jakes, and offered them a "temporary ownership". The deal was that they were to take the 30K originally owed to them, PLUS A SATISFACTORY PROFIT. That was up to them. I believe that's why Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that he COULD have claimed the mine if he wanted to, but he didnt. I believe he was an honest man and kept his word. He only used the gold that he and his partner had mined out.

2) The whole Reavis land fraud fiasco could be another reason Waltz never claimed the mine. People all over the valley were having to give loads of money to Reavis because they thought he had rights to all of the land. Waltz just kept his mouth shut and never said a word.

Thanks,
Travis

[Dirty Dutchman]

Roc,

In my 1 year and 6 months of studying the Lost Dutchman, i've learned this. People like to accuse other people of A LOT of things.

When I first started I was accused of NOT being a "newbie" (Which I am) and of writing a book (which i'm not).

Accused by the same person.....

Just do your own research and trust in that.

Yes people die in the Mountains. Some are murdered. Some have accidents. But MOST of them are ill prepared for what they're getting into. Do your research, and know the mountains inside and out BEFORE you set foot in them. Ask the guys THAT CURRENTLY SPEND TIME IN THE HILLS about the water holes. There are some awesome "Old dudes" that are more than willing to help keep you safe. Not by keeping you out of the mountains, but giving you useful information. Just ask them....

I love this subject and those mountains and won't let anyone else's opinion drive me away from either.

Thanks,
Travis

[cubfan64]

Paul,

I'm sure you've heard my theory on why Waltz never claimed the mine before, but i'll post it again just in case anyone else cares.

It's my opinion there are two possible reasons.

The first one I believe is the real reason. (Although the second one could very well tie in also)

1) Waltz and Weiser made a deal with Peralta. They mined out 60K in gold and returned to Mexico. Peralta wanted to keep the 60K, minus some expense money for the two Jakes, and offered them a "temporary ownership". The deal was that they were to take the 30K originally owed to them, PLUS A SATISFACTORY PROFIT. That was up to them. I believe that's why Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that he COULD have claimed the mine if he wanted to, but he didnt. I believe he was an honest man and kept his word. He only used the gold that he and his partner had mined out.

2) The whole Reavis land fraud fiasco could be another reason Waltz never claimed the mine. People all over the valley were having to give loads of money to Reavis because they thought he had rights to all of the land. Waltz just kept his mouth shut and never said a word.

Thanks,
Travis

Hi Travis,

My comments about Waltz and his mine were directed more towards why he didn't take more gold out, not really why he didn't claim it. I can envision a number of different possibilities for why he may not have wanted to claim it - Jim and Clay's theory involving the Reavis Land Fraud was one I never thought of until he brought it up - frankly I think it's a pretty good one and I mostly like it because it's sort of "outside the box" of typical thinking.

As to your reasoning why Waltz may not have exploited the mine even more, it makes some sense but completely hinges on Waltz being an honorable man. I'm not saying he wasn't - in fact I've never been a believer in the "Waltz killed many men to get/keep the mine" theories. If I had to choose, I would say by the few actions we believe are factual (helping out Julia pay off a debt for example) I lean towards him being a fairly honorable and respectable man. Your theory may very well be correct - the only thing we know is that we'll never really know .

I do think however that if Waltz's source of gold was REALLY as rich as we've been led to believe, the temptation of extracting all he could from the mine would have been VERY HARD to fight - even for a respectable and honorable man.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Roc,

In my 1 year and 6 months of studying the Lost Dutchman, i've learned this. People like to accuse other people of A LOT of things.

When I first started I was accused of NOT being a "newbie" (Which I am) and of writing a book (which i'm not).

Accused by the same person.....

Just do your own research and trust in that.

Yes people die in the Mountains. Some are murdered. Some have accidents. But MOST of them are ill prepared for what they're getting into. Do your research, and know the mountains inside and out BEFORE you set foot in them. Ask the guys THAT CURRENTLY SPEND TIME IN THE HILLS about the water holes. There are some awesome "Old dudes" that are more than willing to help keep you safe. Not by keeping you out of the mountains, but giving you useful information. Just ask them....

I love this subject and those mountains and won't let anyone else's opinion drive me away from either.

Thanks,
Travis

Travis,

Good advice!

Take care,

Joe

[AshtonPage]

I do think however that if Waltz's source of gold was REALLY as rich as we've been led to believe, the temptation of extracting all he could from the mine would have been VERY HARD to fight - even for a respectable and honorable man.

The best any of us are able to do is to try and figure out which theory is best supported by the facts. In my opinion the mine simply is not that rich. Yes, there is a small portion that has rich ore (reported to be 2” across). But the bulk of the ore is not fantastic nor is the LDM the “richest mine in the world.”

If I am right that would explain why Mr. Pipps was not rich, even though he was pilfering Waltz’s mine (so much for honor playing a role). And also why, at least according to Sims, Waltz was not that interested in Julia and Reiney operating the mine. They would have had the startup capital from the cache if they wanted to re-open the mine – so why would Waltz down-play the mines significance? It is simply not as rich as the legend would have us believe.

OK – I’m done, I’m off my soapbox on this issue and ready to move on.

Thanks for bearing with me on this one.

Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Roc,

In my 1 year and 6 months of studying the Lost Dutchman, i've learned this. People like to accuse other people of A LOT of things.

When I first started I was accused of NOT being a "newbie" (Which I am) and of writing a book (which i'm not).

Accused by the same person.....

Just do your own research and trust in that.

Yes people die in the Mountains. Some are murdered. Some have accidents. But MOST of them are ill prepared for what they're getting into. Do your research, and know the mountains inside and out BEFORE you set foot in them. Ask the guys THAT CURRENTLY SPEND TIME IN THE HILLS about the water holes. There are some awesome "Old dudes" that are more than willing to help keep you safe. Not by keeping you out of the mountains, but giving you useful information. Just ask them....

I love this subject and those mountains and won't let anyone else's opinion drive me away from either.

Thanks,
Travis

Travis,

Good advice!

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I know!!

Thanks,
Travis

[cubfan64]

I do think however that if Waltz's source of gold was REALLY as rich as we've been led to believe, the temptation of extracting all he could from the mine would have been VERY HARD to fight - even for a respectable and honorable man.

The best any of us are able to do is to try and figure out which theory is best supported by the facts. In my opinion the mine simply is not that rich. Yes, there is a small portion that has rich ore (reported to be 2” across). But the bulk of the ore is not fantastic nor is the LDM the “richest mine in the world.”

If I am right that would explain why Mr. Pipps was not rich, even though he was pilfering Waltz’s mine (so much for honor playing a role). And also why, at least according to Sims, Waltz was not that interested in Julia and Reiney operating the mine. They would have had the startup capital from the cache if they wanted to re-open the mine – so why would Waltz down-play the mines significance? It is simply not as rich as the legend would have us believe.

OK – I’m done, I’m off my soapbox on this issue and ready to move on.

Thanks for bearing with me on this one.

Ashton

Ashton - nothing wrong with that soapbox as far as I'm concerned. Quite honestly, I agree with you that what little evidence we have, combined with logical thinking and mixing in a little understanding of human nature leads me to agree with you that the ore body simply isn't as rich as the legends would have us believe. In fact, I often wonder if the reason it hasn't been found in all these years is because it HAS BEEN FOUND and cleaned out at one time or another.

I hope I can make it to the Rendezvous this year - I'd like to meet you and also spend more time talking with you and Travis as I didn't make time last year.