GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

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i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

somehiker wrote:Joe:

Did you ever find yourself wondering why someone went to all the trouble of cutting that heart-shaped recess in the Stone map? A narrow,rectangular slot would have allowed the heart to be positioned upright,as it is in your photo,and this heart is in mine.This heart is not as large as the one in your photo of course,and it's only part way along the Stone Map trail which ends at a much larger heart which is not upright,but this one does have a crack across one lobe like the Heart Map.Maybe even an "X" in the middle,like the second "X" shown on the map.

Image

Down towards the bottom of this heart,you should also be able to see another heart with a horizontal line pointing to the the right hand side.Compare it with the heart under "COAZON" on the Priest Map.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

Mother Nature is indeed amazing.

I always thought the Stone Maps were simple topographics, and they are flat renderings of the terrain. I would consider it strange if they were to take the important landmarks on the map, cut slots in the surface of the Stone Maps, and show them standing upright.

But then, what do I know? Nice theory.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by somehiker »

Joe:
Isn't she though !
She certainly did a good job of making all these things look like what somebody carved on the stones.And putting them in the right places too... ;)
Then again,maybe she did it first ? :idea:

(I do think putting a woman in charge of the weather was a BIG mistake,though !!)

Not everything..... Just the Heart.
Otherwise we would be having way more fun trying to figger out which peg goes in which hole. :lol:

Seeing as someone did go to all the trouble of carving both a heart and a place to put it in,rather than just carving an outline of a heart on the surface at the end of the "trail",you don't suppose he was trying to say that the heart has to be removed to get at what's underneath,do you ?
Makes sense to me,but that's just the way I think about stuff like that.

Like:

He also carved some important things in the bottom of the pocket....obviously for a reason.
And why such a big heart and pocket,when everything on the Heart Stone could have been just as visible on something half it's size ? A smaller Stone Heart would also be logical,if the heart at the end of the trail was a just big boulder,like the one with the two vertical lines at the beginning of the trail.
But if it was only half the size,how would he have been able to fit everything that's on the Latin Heart into such a small area,and still have something legible ?
I don't think he could have,which means it was the Latin Heart which dictated the size of the pocket and therefore the size of Map Heart as well.

"Simple","topographic" and "important landmarks" are common criteria for conventional maps.
But I don't see anything conventional about them.And maybe that's the way they were meant to be.
I guess that's why I've been able to see what I've seen,and get the photos which I have chosen to share.

Regards:Wayne
i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

somehiker wrote:Joe:
Isn't she though !
She certainly did a good job of making all these things look like what somebody carved on the stones.And putting them in the right places too... ;)
Then again,maybe she did it first ? :idea:

(I do think putting a woman in charge of the weather was a BIG mistake,though !!)

Not everything..... Just the Heart.
Otherwise we would be having way more fun trying to figger out which peg goes in which hole. :lol:

Seeing as someone did go to all the trouble of carving both a heart and a place to put it in,rather than just carving an outline of a heart on the surface at the end of the "trail",you don't suppose he was trying to say that the heart has to be removed to get at what's underneath,do you ?
Makes sense to me,but that's just the way I think about stuff like that.

Like:

He also carved some important things in the bottom of the pocket....obviously for a reason.
And why such a big heart and pocket,when everything on the Heart Stone could have been just as visible on something half it's size ? A smaller Stone Heart would also be logical,if the heart at the end of the trail was a just big boulder,like the one with the two vertical lines at the beginning of the trail.
But if it was only half the size,how would he have been able to fit everything that's on the Latin Heart into such a small area,and still have something legible ?
I don't think he could have,which means it was the Latin Heart which dictated the size of the pocket and therefore the size of Map Heart as well.

"Simple","topographic" and "important landmarks" are common criteria for conventional maps.
But I don't see anything conventional about them.And maybe that's the way they were meant to be.
I guess that's why I've been able to see what I've seen,and get the photos which I have chosen to share.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

There is little doubt that you have gifted insight. That has been transferred into your great pictures.

There is good evidence that Travis carved the Stone Maps, and even better evidence that he added the markings below the stone heart. In that respect, it seems an exercise in futility to attempt to assign meaning to them.

"There is something I think you should know. The zeros cut across the back side of the heart were carved there by Travis Tumlinson himself after he found the stones. He stated that himself after he found the stones. He stated that Travis did this to throw any one off guard who might see or steal the stones......"
From "The Richard Peck Story (1964-1968)" on Garry Cundiff's site.

On the other hand, I can't believe he didn't have help from someone who knew the mountains very well. I have to admit, I've had a wonderful time following the Stone Map trail over the last 40+ years.

I trust your adventure will be just as exciting and rewarding.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by somehiker »

Joe:

I consider such "insight" to be more of a reward than a gift.
It comes from hard work and perseverance,with historical research and observations made in those areas to which the stones apply bringing the results to which my photos can attest.

I am,of course,working with the belief that the stones are authentic.
Or at least reasonable facsimiles made by Tumlinson, of the originals.
The originals of course,having indeed been made by someone very familiar with at least the area to which they apply.
That someone also knowing enough of the area to have made the "Cursum Perficio Map carving",discovered by Abe Reid circa 1910-20 along with a book of Latin Sermons which also contained a drawing of the map as well as handwritten notes in Latin.

I did not begin with the intention of including the Stone Crosses as part of my project,but it quickly became apparent to me that they apply to the same area as do the Stone Maps.

The Latin Heart and the Cursum Perficio Carving are somewhat easier to link to the Stone Maps,because of the directional observations and points of reference included by their maker.

It is also easy for me to understand why,given the propensity of so many to ignore or discount all but the Trail Maps,they would find any attempt to assign meaning to them an exercise in futility.

Likewise, your insistence and that of some others that the evidence for Tumlinson having made the original stones carries more weight than the greater sum of contrary evidence of him having found the original stones as well as having/sharing a belief in their authenticity with family and friends.

You for example,quoted this statement,made by Bob Bair to Mel Brower in mid-march of 1965 as "good evidence" of Tumlinson having carved the stones:

"There is something I think you should know. The zeros cut across the back side of the heart were carved there by Travis Tumlinson himself after he found the stones. He stated that himself after he found the stones. He stated that Travis did this to throw any one off guard who might see or steal the stones......"
From "The Richard Peck Story (1964-1968)" on Garry Cundiff's site.
[http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... eralta.htm]

I on the other hand,and from reading the entire interview,see Travis' friend Bair as one who believed the stones to be genuine,(despite his insistence of having been shown only the two trail stones and the heart stone) and that he also understood that Tumlinson had found the stones,and not fabricated them himself.
Further,I cannot understand how any additional carving done by Tumlinson,freely admitted to and justified to his friend,can be extrapolated into some kind of "evidence" that indicates he made all of the carvings.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

Intersting read !!

does the heart shape rock idea
come into play, in regards to the LDM,
only after the discovery of the Peralta Stones?

Was there any reference to a heart shape rock prior in the Dutchman literature ?

How about heart shapes tales in other prospecting lore?
Know of any ?
Thanks guys !
Ed
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi Ed,

I don't know much about prospecting lore other that what I have read on the LDM. However, According to Charles Kenworthy's books, a carved heart with a break in it or a lightning bolt through it is a Spanish \ Mexican symbol of a trap in, or near a mine. FWIW.

Ashton
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi All,

Does anyone know if Mitchell’s description of the ore is accurate? Even close to accurate? I ask because Mitchell’s account is certainly the most believable version I have read. I know that some have calculated the value of the ore (based upon the matchbox ore) to equal $330k \ linear foot. HOWEVER, I question whether the matchbox ore is representative of the entire vein. According to Mitchell, it is not.

“This shaft goes down on an 18” vein of quartz that will run several thousand dollars to the ton. This quartz ledge is of the rose-quartz variety with a few inches of crystal hematite and quartz on the hanging wall side. The few inches of the hanging wall ore is about 1/3 gold. The rose-quartz is generously sprinkled with pin head size lumps of gold.” –‘Lost Mines of the Great Southwest’ Mitchell page 130

It seems that Mitchell is describing an 18” vein with a 2” stringer that is 1/3 gold. But according to Mitchell, the main vein is nowhere near that rich. If my math is correct; I am assuming $20 \ oz when it was written, which puts the 18” vein at 350 oz \ ton (an incredible bonanza if there ever was one – but nowhere near 30% gold) and only a ‘few inches’ of ore that is 1/3 gold (like the matchbox).

Mitchell’s rough estimate of $7k \ ton equates to around $525k per ton at today’s prices of $1500 \ oz. Yes, there is “a few inches” of ore that is 1/3 gold, but that’s not the bulk of the ore. Considering that you’re going to have to move six tons (or more) of rock to extract one ton of ore – that’s roughly $87k per ton of material removed, and one quickly realizes that mining underground (for lack of a better term) quickly becomes impractical, at least for an everyday guy like me, in a DWA.

I’m saying that if Mitchell is correct, then only a small fraction (.0123 – just over 1%) of the LDM ore is of the quality we see in the matchbox. Secondly, the only practical way an average guy is going to make this work is to fight it out in the courts for years, which in today’s political climate, I think decades is more like it.

Anyone know where Mitchell got his info? Any chance he is right?

Thanks in Advance,
Ashton
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by AshtonPage »

I don’t know why it is that 5 minutes AFTER I post something THEN I think of something else.

Anyway – assuming that Mitchell’s description is correct and less than 2% of the LDM ore is the quality of the matchbox ore, that certainly would be one explanation as to why Waltz wasn’t rolling in the $ millions.

Ashton
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by coazon de oro »

Ashton,

Excuse me for I am no General, but this discussion on the mine's worth impels me to throw in my two cents worth.

I have not read Mr. Waite's books, as a matter of fact, I have only read one book concerning the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine. That was forty, or forty four years ago when I was in high school. No, I don't remember which book it was. One of the things that I remember is that Waltz would go behind the rock face on the way to the mine, in the book that I read. He would also climb down a steep ravine and get on a ledge.

Maybe you can tell me which book I read. Anyway, most of what I do know about this legend, I have picked up here in the forums, and from the little that I can peek into the books on the web. Now, back to the mine.

The way I see it, with an 18" vein of 1/3 gold, it doesn't take much material to make a ton. Waltz never used dynamite, that we know. I do think he mentions having trouble breaking the ore because the quartz is held together by the gold.

He did say that the shaft was 12' deep when the Mexicans showed it to him. After he killed them, he sold what they had extracted. When he covered the mine, he said it was 14' deep, and he left $75,000 worth of gold cached in it. That's close to $6,000,000 @ today's prices, in just two feet. He may have taken more than that out of those two feet, but @ $3,000,000 a foot, it doesn't sound too shabby.

Homar
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi Homar,

Always good to hear from you. What I am saying is that (in my OPINION) Waltz’s 18” vein is nothing like the matchbox we have seen pictures of. The 18” vein contains somewhere between 1% and 2% gold content (based on Mitchell’s $7k to the ton).

However, there is also a smaller 2” vein off to the side of the 18” vein - and it is that little 2” vein (and ONLY the 2” vein) that is 1/3 gold. It was the ore from the little vein that would have been made into the matchbox. But that’s NOT the gold from the 18” vein.

BUT – all that is just my interpretation of what Mitchell writes. I was wondering if Mitchell had any credibility, but when I thought about why Waltz never had the kind of money you would expect from someone who had a gold mine that was 1/3 pure gold, it crossed my mind the fact that Waltz never had a boatload of dough tends to support Mitchell’s description of the TWO veins. In other words, the LDM is nowhere as rich as I thought it was. That’s not to say the mine is not a very rich mine, it is. It’s just not all 1/3 gold like the matchbox is.

I do agree with you that if Waltz left $75k of gold buried in the mine, it would certainly be worthwhile. I’m just not sure Waltz would leave that much gold in a mine that he murdered for.

Best,
Ashton
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