GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

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i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Roc,

You might want to pay a visit to this site:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... nes#p22478

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

Thanks Joe

Its seems like the LDM is one particular type of history compared
to the other more general histories. The more mainstream historians
seem not to include many of the LDM references.
It gets pretty frustrating & tantalizing.

For instance reading the Cave Creek histories mentioned above
its goes into all the mining activity occurring in that area.
This all during of Waltz’s era of living in Phoenix
Yet I find no linkage to Waltz. Not overtly al least.

It seems like the old prospector would have been drawn into this?
Maybe its because he already had his own cache so why bother?
Or did he just have enough of prospecting in the past?
It’s a tough game.

W. W. Jones had a large ranch in Cave Creek/Carefree area?
The book I’m reading is a pretty thorough of all the historical personalities
in that area.
Yet this man is not mentioned.

I find this all the time in my historical readings. There is the LDM history.
Then all the other history. The two only overlap enough to be fringe curiosity

Lets take for example History of Arizona (copy write 1918)
by Thomas Edwin Farish

Chapter 5 as a history of the Settlements of Salt River Valley.
Many people are mentioned --which as LDM enthuisiasts--
are known to us .

Unfortuanteley Waltz is not mentioned.
I always found this curious.
Darn well know that Waltz was indeed was one of the first pioneers
How could this historian miss him?

There either a conspiracy silence or a conspiracy of confabulation :!:


So I’m not sure where I’m going with this. :lol:
I’m just an intersted guy who like to delve into history
- seeking historical nuggets.
I find the legend fascinating. I like to figure out how it grows.

But I have this question for you Joe.
You’ve done a thorough reading of Arizona history.

Do you find that the LDM histories are an alternative history
to the more general historical accounts?

Have a really fine day
roc
i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Roc,

"Lets take for example History of Arizona (copy write 1918)
by Thomas Edwin Farish

Chapter 5 as a history of the Settlements of Salt River Valley.
Many people are mentioned --which as LDM enthuisiasts--
are known to us .

Unfortuanteley Waltz is not mentioned.
I always found this curious.
Darn well know that Waltz was indeed was one of the first pioneers
How could this historian miss him?

There either a conspiracy silence or a conspiracy of confabulation."
______________________________________________________

My personal belief is that a good deal of the "historical" information for Waltz is made-up. Quotes attributed to him as well as sightings and "friends" were just cases of the "Hell, I was there" syndrome. Like many citizens of Arizona, I'm quite sure he kept a low profile. His fame and notoriety only came well after his death.

In my copy of "History Of Arizona", (Farish) Copyright 1915, Volume 2, you can find a short mention of Dr. W. W. Jones, "one of Arizona's early pioneers." on page 287.

To find any mention of Waltz, I believe you need to look at "local" history, as opposed to state. Despite someone's claims to the contrary, I have the manuscripts and letters of Frank Alkire who was living in Phoenix, and had a ranch nearby, during Waltz's time/death, and he makes no mention of Waltz at all.

I would suggest reading Dr. Glover's story on Alkire, starting on page 156. The whole thing is made up, but Thomas trusted his source completely, as did Helen Corbin.

Trying to separate the real history of the LDM from the false is a full time job, but much of the leg work has been done on the different sites.

Good luck,

Joe
Last edited by i-tsari-tsu-i on Mon May 21, 2012 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

I perusing Helen Corbin’s book now
Some of those histories seem well exaggerated
Out of context. Word of mouth knowledge.
And Waltz references in the manuscript of Roberts seem forced.


But YET there is obviously lots of great ‘soft history’
Stuff I really thrive on!

Like the mention CoHo Young!
In the Abraham Peeple’s diary
I found his tombstone
I would have never known about him
had it not been for Dutchman interest & literature.

His resting place is in an old pioneer cemetery
(in disuse now)
called the Crosscut.
It closed in 1930’s

A coffin was found at 4th Ave & Jackson
I guess that where the original pioneer cemetery was located.
They relocated that cemetery to it present location
Guess they missed a few…


Thanks Joe
I’ll check those links out
roc
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

It wasn't that I was questioning Dr. Jones historical-ness
it just that he got mentioned owning a ranch in Cave Creek/Carfree area
and I just happened to have that book
no mention of him -- from what appears to be a pretty thourogh study

Anyway I thought the Bicknell refernece was new info!
That really stoked me
historical nugget is all i find
never gold
roc :roll:
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

Hi Guys!

Well I pretty much have to accept Blair analysis of this legend
But that leave unexplained a certain amount of
gold that Waltz flashed about town and that created rumors

I’ve already discounted that it was high graded.
O and its very possible there was a hidden seam
but what my hunch is
is that the Starar Bros were behind it

I think they were fronting gold to the poorer Waltz
in a land hustle…
well that’s pretty sketchy
although there is some vague documentation
but its my working hypothesis…

keep on
roc
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Roc,

It's possible that Waltz had accumulated his ore over the years, from a number of different locations and prospects. That might account for the different descriptions of his ore.

The Massacre Grounds is another possibility. Julia and Rhiney's first attempt to enter the mountains was at Hog Canyon. There next try was from Second Water. That nicely brackets the massacre site. :o

Blair did some excellent research. Don't think many can argue with that, although most disagree with his conclusions.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by babymick1 »

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Roc,

It's possible that Waltz had accumulated his ore over the years,

Take care,

Joe

It,s possible that waltz was a striaght up guy and found a rich gold mine. He new he was dying, and like today.
They leave vast amounts of money to other people, schools, churhes, ect.

Babymick1
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roc2rol »

As there ever been a verification done on Magdeburg ?
The gent who bequeathed to Waltz a considerable
sum of money when he passed ?
That's a very curious story...
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by cubfan64 »

roc2rol wrote:As there ever been a verification done on Magdeburg ?
The gent who bequeathed to Waltz a considerable
sum of money when he passed ?
That's a very curious story...
You'll have to refresh my memory on that one Roc - the only time I recall seeing Magdeburg associated with Waltz and/or the Lost Dutchman was in reference to him possibly being from that town in Germany.
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