GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

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i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed May 09, 2012 3:24 pm

BMick,

This from Thomas Glover on the LDM Forum, Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:57 am :

[Bicknell’s articles concerning the Lost Dutchman were written between 1894 and 1895. As Joe has noted Bicknell knew the Superstitions years before Waltz’s death. His article “Superstition Mountains, Old Myths and Legends Dispelled” appeared in the Arizona Daily Gazette August 10th 1886. Bicknell’s articles on the mine started in 1894 and grew and grew not only in length and detail, but also in coverage from local Arizona papers to national newspapers by 1895. Why this growth that may have secured the Lost Dutchman’s fame? Even if “Bick” was interested, why were the newspapers interested, especially ones in Kansas City or San Francisco?

In my book The Golden Dream I hypothesized that it was due to timing. The timing of Waltz’s death and revelations coupled with his physical evidence (his gold) on the one hand and the discovery of the rich Goldfield deposits coupled with remains of lost Mexican mines and camps on the other. Plus the reports of Waltz’s story fit the 1890s mindset of likely wealthy precious metal deposits in the central and western Superstitions since the area lay between the Pioneer District with the Silver King and the Randolph District to the east, and the new incredibly rich Goldfield District to the west.

I still believe that timing was everything. After all there were older and/or more famous lost mines of the time, mines like the Lost Adams, the Lost Cement or the Lost Doc Thorne. But these tales had all been around for sometime, it seems to me that none of them had the timing of the Dutchman, none of them burst on the scene and at just the right time. I now believe that I overlooked a significant factor in the timing, which helped launch of the Lost Dutchman legend across the country, something that links the launch of the legend with the legend of Adolph Ruth—a national Depression. Many things fueled Ruth’s legend, but one of the biggest was the Depression of the 1930s. Depressions fuel treasure tales. The bigger the Depression the more effect such tales seem to have, and the more people want to read about them.

Up until the Depression of the 1930s the worst Depression in the history of the United States was the Depression of 1893. From essentially 1893 until circa 1897/'98 the United States suffered from the worst Depression in its history up until that time. The following bits are from David O. Whitten’s article (Auburn University, http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whitten.panic.1893):
* The Depression of 1893 was one of the worst in American history with the unemployment rate exceeding ten percent for half a decade.
* The Depression of 1893 can be seen as a watershed event in American history.
* … that real GNP fell about 4% from 1892 to 1893 and another 6% from 1893 to 1894. By 1895 the economy had grown past its earlier peak, but GDP fell about 2.5% from 1895 to 1896. During this period population grew at about 2% per year, so real GNP per person didn't surpass its 1892 level until 1899.
* Immigration, which had averaged over 500,000 people per year in the 1880s and which would surpass one million people per year in the first decade of the 1900s, averaged only 270,000 from 1894 to 1898.

Whitten’s article is, I admit, a bit dry, but the point is made: Things were bad in the mid-1890s, starting in 1894. It is in 1894 that Bicknell’s articles started to take off. Goldfield was in its heyday, articles had started to appear in the local Arizona papers about a few searches for the mine, Waltz’s stories seemed to fit the local “facts: location, and lost Mexican mines and camps in the Superstitions (remember that in the 1890s the Goldfield Mts. and area were referred to as the Superstitions in the local newspapers), and then the Depression of 1893 hits at just the right time. Bicknell sees the opportunity and rides the wave, so to speak, spreading the story farther and farther a field as the Depression sets in.

Bicknell was only 52 when he died (born 1852, died 1904). With him went many secrets: with whom did talk, from where did all of his information come, what he knew personally about the mountains and Waltz and the other early players in the drama, such as Julia, Rhinhart, William Edwards, Bark, George Roberts, and who knows whom else. Sadly it seems Bicknell’s papers and such were stored all those years ago waiting for a next of kin to claim them, but they never seem to have been claimed and now they are probably lost to time.

Respectfully,

Thomas]
_______________________________

Might have some bearing on your own research.

Joe

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby babymick1 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Well thanks Joe for all that (depression) imformation.


Babymick1

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed May 09, 2012 7:08 pm

Babymick,

"Well thanks Joe for all that (depression) imformation."
____________________________________________

I thought there was so much more in that post that is relevant to what we have been discussing here, but it may be that I have not fully recovered all my marbles from a heart attack I had last Sunday. I probably should just stop posting for awhile, but bad habits are hard to break.

One of the things Thomas mentioned back in 2007 was "timing". That may very well be the key in unraveling the LDM mystery. Staying mindful of the chronology of all the clues and stories. Perhaps taking Bicknell out of the mix and placing his stories in the proper time slot is important.

Then again, maybe I just need to reread Thomas' post over again.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby roc2rol » Wed May 09, 2012 10:50 pm

Well that’s a real fine piece of analysis Mr. Glover wrote
Thanks for posting it.

I like the timing part

Imagine!
Waltz is the last one standing of the original settlers/prospectors.
Duppa, Starrar, Swilling, Peoples ect…are all gone.
Waltz an old man living alone with a lifetime of wealthy insights
& stories behind him.
For decades he lived with his incredible life. And it was!
Coming from Germany and moves all over the U.S.
Heck he seen more than me! But who was there to talk to?
All those folks were of the same remarkable character.

And so he finds himself at death door being nursed by a new generation.
Greenhorns-- but wise enough to know—that this man may have secrets,
a rich history to tell. Perhaps this is all Waltz ever had?

And already we have circulating rumors of lost gold in the
surrounding Mountains. Plus hard times are encroaching.
So in the ensuing months, an old dying man, becomes
the last of a tradition. Certainly the town is taking notice.
What does he know? And Julia becomes the gatekeeper.

Yet it’s not just any old man who is dying with JUST a history to impart.
This is Jacob Waltz ! The man who created whispers and rumors
during the good years of 1870’s. There was just enough gold ore floated
by Waltz for the town to take notice. Where did it come from?
These whispers resurfaced when death is near.

Waltz had a source. Very limited. But enough to make people wonder.
Hence on his deathbed he becomes cared for his knowledge.
Perhaps even mythologized.
But a mythos that had some antecedent verification.

And as the days and month go by people are talking.
What is Waltz divulging to this Julia? What is Julia really hearing?
All this had to have quite an effect on this single lady.
A single lady whom I would maintain had quite an entrepreneurial spirit.
It’s all in the timing.

Admittedly none of the above adds one whit
to whether there is an actual physical lost gold mine in the Supers.
Only time will tell….
roc

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby roc2rol » Thu May 10, 2012 9:38 am

I think we need to start Bicknell topic
It is revelatory information that warrants it own

consequently the district which will be formed at the new find will add another district to the list in that county.


This is a curious quote from the article
Any idea what it refers to?
Ed

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby cubfan64 » Thu May 10, 2012 10:10 am

roc2rol wrote:I think we need to start Bicknell topic
It is revelatory information that warrants it own

consequently the district which will be formed at the new find will add another district to the list in that county.


This is a curious quote from the article
Any idea what it refers to?
Ed


Roc - I think the "districts" being referred to are names for mining areas. For example, once gold was found in the Goldfield area, it received the name "Goldfield Mining District" - similar to when ore was found and mined int he Roger's Canyon area - it became the "Roger's Mining District." Unless I'm mistaken, the author is referring to the fact that the rich silver deposit found by the 2 German's was such a rich prospect that it's likely it would "found" a new district in itself.

The how's, what's and why's an area would become known as a "district" is something I can't answer - there's probably some legal reason or something, but I always just assumed it meant there was enough profitable ore in the area that it was raised to the status of a district.

I could be completely off base.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby i-tsari-tsu-i » Thu May 10, 2012 10:22 am

Ed,

["Old Superstition" is in Maricopa County, consequently the district which will be formed at the new find will add another district to the list in that county.]

I would assume a new district which would be formed, would be because no mining district existed where the new find was located.

I believe that information is out there somewhere. It may be on a map that I have.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby cubfan64 » Thu May 10, 2012 11:15 am

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Ed,

["Old Superstition" is in Maricopa County, consequently the district which will be formed at the new find will add another district to the list in that county.]

I would assume a new district which would be formed, would be because no mining district existed where the new find was located.

I believe that information is out there somewhere. It may be on a map that I have.

Take care,

Joe


Joe,

That would assume you know who the 2 German's were that located the silver deposit and where it was located - do you have enough information to know that?

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby Olaf » Thu May 10, 2012 5:26 pm

Joe,

Sorry to hear about your heart problems. Anything to bring something like that on? Carol and I are thinking about you and Carolyn and hoping everything is just a blip. Hang in there!

I thought your post on the timing of the legend was EXTREMELY well thought out. I found it very thought provoking.



You and Carolyn Take Care,

Garry

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Postby Olaf » Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

P. S.

Just some trivia.

What was the name of the Lost Mine that the Petrach's said they were looking for in 1892. Also I believe Dick Holmes mentions the same mine? I'd have to dig that reference out. :)

Garry


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