Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by cubfan64 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:08 pm

A quick moderator message/reminder:

This topic has a very real potential to get "ugly."

Whenever folks have very strong longstanding feelings and opinions about a subject, it's easy for things to escalate from cordial discussion to personal attacks - especially online where intonation, facial expression etc... doesn't come through.

I trust everyone will keep things as civil as possible, however in the event I feel things crossing a line or getting a bit out of control, I will do my best to impartially monitor/edit/delete posts as I see fit.

I'm optimistic that I won't have to do ANY moderating on this thread :) Please continue and thanks for your help.

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by oroblanco » Fri May 14, 2010 7:34 pm

Greetings,

Is the article being discussed on this page (web)?
http://www.superstitionmountain.info/

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/ch ... 10_10.html

Jim wrote
"They walk among us"
Well if you mean that not all of us here believe the Peralta stones are genuine, then you are right. Cubfan is right, this topic will get contentious and people will get offended, and as for a calm discussion/debate of the Peralta stones I don't think that is going to be possible. A person whom is not convinced they are the genuine article will be seen as attacking and/or trying to tear down the dreams of those who do believe them to be genuine, and some who do not believe they are real see any defense of them as akin to a blind faith. I have been accused of having a large blind spot with the Peralta stones, and maybe it is true - but to me they are not unlike all the other treasure maps that are in circulation. I don't want to tear down someone's dream, so won't start questioning the Peralta Stones. If I had a treasure map that I believed was the genuine article, I sure wouldn't appreciate someone else trying to denigrate it.

People do get ripped off in this business, and the cheats and deceivers are only too ready to prey on our trust. We will probably always have them in this business, and they are not limited to the Peralta stones or the Superstitions either - they are very active in the Philippines, some in Mexico, Peru and many other places not just in the USA. The chance for a treasure is too alluring and people are too quick to hand over their hard-earned money to invest in schemes to get rich and find those treasures. Too often, the victims are so ashamed that they were taken that they won't even report it to the authorities. There are also a few law enforcement officials who seem to have the attitude that if you got burnt in a treasure hunting scam, you deserved it. This helps keep the scammers and ripoff artists going.

I can understand Tom's view that people maybe ought to be discouraged from hunting for lost mines and treasures, especially in the Superstitions, but respectfully disagree - it is just my opinion but I think (most) everyone ought to go on a real treasure hunt at least once in their lives, it is, or can be, an experience that will stay with you for your lifetime whether you find treasure or just pretty scenery. I do wish that people would use their heads though and always go prepared, and never invest more money than they can afford to lose. The same as in any investment, you don't risk more than you could lose safely, and likewise with the actual 'expedition' you wouldn't load up your bass boat and decide to raft the Colorado river without plenty of preparation and in most cases a guide too.

I believe we can disagree and remain friends even on this "hot button" issue; we have many common interests and many other differences which doesn't mean we can't stay friends and I hope to have a fireside chat with all of you one day.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri May 14, 2010 9:28 pm

Hello Roy,

I have been waiting for you to step into this discussion. :mrgreen:

As I have stated to you many times both publicly and privately, I have a lot of respect for your opinions in areas where you have a great deal of experience. However I do not consider the subject of the stone maps to be one of those areas.

I have never seen you present anything in the way of conclusions, based on your own homework on the stone maps. Your skepticism about the authenticity of the stone maps, always appears to be based on someone else's opinion, which only traces back to someone else's opinion. This is not research. This is "Grapevine Gossip"

With that in mind, I find it hard to accept you as someone who can speak with any authority about them. As I was reminding Tom... I have spent the better part of the last two decades researching the history of the maps, right here on the ground where that history took place. Additionally I have spent many thousands of hours, on trail in the Superstition Mountains, in an effort to confirm whether or not, I believe if they are auhentic, and if that is the area they apply to.

Most of the results of that research was presented in my article at:
http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html
way back in 2005. If you (or anyone else) would like to challenge the validity of that research, and/or the conclusions I formed from it. This is the place to do it.

However... I would expect you to submit more than your "Gut Feelings", or a repeat of something you read elsewhere on the Internet, written by some guy who is basing his opinions on his "Gut Feelings", or some distorted version of the true history of the stone maps.

BTW... I share your expressed opinions on "Treasure Maps" in general, and specifically gave my reasons for it in the article referenced above. Additionally I went into great detail explaining the difference between the Peralta Stone Maps and the run of the mill "Treasure Map".

My right to speak as an "Authority" on the stone maps, was hard earned, and is clearly documented, over the last two decades. If you want to present yourself as an "Authority" on them, please show us all, what makes you think you have earned that right first.

Otherwise save the "Grapevine Gossip" for the likes of the Google Earther's, and fiction writers. It carries no weight in this forum.

Please excuse my blunt approach Roy. Nothing personal intended.

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by silent hunter » Sat May 15, 2010 6:51 am

Roy I have seen with my own eyes the stone maps come alive!!!! I have stood at the spot of the author. I have also used several other maps that fit the same area.

You can take any one of the maps out there and adjust them too match up in any creek or canyon. But to be able to use several different maps in one area, is very difficult at best. I have spent alot of my time out there with many Dutch Hunters. We would pack in for days only to come to a horse head that only they could see, or a cave that ended up being nothing but erosion.

I had already followed maps made on coronados trip to Zuni. I followed them from Zuni to Four Peaks then into a creek, and was making my way to the same spot Jim found using the stone maps. I also used stone maps, they were just to large to bring, some the size of small cars LOL!!!!

That is what has made me so interested in Jim's interpretation of the Peralta Stones. The landmarks I look for at every site,. If you look at my Zuni maps you will always see a circle of stones marking a intersection within the great circle of trails.

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by silent hunter » Sat May 15, 2010 7:53 am

Thanks for the link Roy, but I was asking Tom if he could post the story in this thread. Not a link by someone else or you I could have done that.

I followed a different set of maps to the stone cross location not the ones found locally, so I have some input to help varify them from the source.

Tom is responsible for what he writes, he claims he read my Zuni thread??? Then how did you miss the part that says from the Zuni heaven, I followed the trail to Cibicue mountain to four peaks and then into the wilderness area???? His research did not include my only now released trip from Cibola to Cibola!!!!!

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by oroblanco » Sat May 15, 2010 4:51 pm

Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply so I must ask your indulgence;

Jim, where have I ever stated that I, personally am any kind of an authority on the Peralta stones? If anything I have said quite the opposite, on several occasions. I am not offended by your blunt approach, so I hope you won't be offended by the same. Your own research has convinced you, and you presented a fair case in your article. To put it in simple terms, I am not convinced. That I am not convinced <or anyone else for that matter> should not preclude anyone else from being convinced they are genuine, or of using them to search for treasures. I mean this - so what if any particular person says "it isn't so" if you are persuaded it IS so? It is not like they are trying to stop you from pursuing the quest. I have a bigger problem with certain private clubs whom ARE trying to put a stop to all treasure hunting and all prospecting for that matter. Maybe you even heard about the movement they had some years ago, with the slogan "Mine Free by '93"? That I have a real problem with.

Silent Hunter wrote
Thanks for the link Roy, but I was asking Tom if he could post the story in this thread. Not a link by someone else or you I could have done that.
Well it was done for the benefit of our readers, so that in case Tom could not or chose not to allow it to be reproduced here, they could easily read what we are talking about. I was not trying to answer FOR Tom, I am sure he can speak for himself. No offense intended, just thought it might help our readers understand what it being discussed.
silent hunter wrote:Roy I have seen with my own eyes the stone maps come alive!!!! I have stood at the spot of the author. I have also used several other maps that fit the same area.

You can take any one of the maps out there and adjust them too match up in any creek or canyon. But to be able to use several different maps in one area, is very difficult at best. I have spent alot of my time out there with many Dutch Hunters. We would pack in for days only to come to a horse head that only they could see, or a cave that ended up being nothing but erosion.

I had already followed maps made on coronados trip to Zuni. I followed them from Zuni to Four Peaks then into a creek, and was making my way to the same spot Jim found using the stone maps. I also used stone maps, they were just to large to bring, some the size of small cars LOL!!!!

That is what has made me so interested in Jim's interpretation of the Peralta Stones. The landmarks I look for at every site,. If you look at my Zuni maps you will always see a circle of stones marking a intersection within the great circle of trails.
I am glad that it worked for you, and still wish you the best of luck. I would love to hear about you striking it rich and finding that "pot-o-gold" so to speak.

What bothers me about all treasure maps is several things; for one, if it is in the 'public domain' as the stone maps are, what proof do we have that whatever treasure they may have led to hasn't already been found and removed? If not, why haven't any of those whom have used them, found it? There almost has to be something wrong with every treasure map, something that the creator(s) did purposely so as to protect it from the 'wrong' person finding it. If you can figure out what that key thing is, great - otherwise a person could spend a great deal of time on it without making progress. Life is short, and in my case I have limited amounts of time to spend on treasure hunting so have chosen to follow other methods in which I have more faith, like good old fashioned prospecting methods. After all, every single mine ever found, had to be found in some way, and most often it was found by prospecting in the first place. No matter how well hidden, nature erodes away ore deposits and this produces a 'trail' that can be followed.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even if it was found by using the Peralta stones or Ruth's map.
Roy

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by LoneStar » Sat May 15, 2010 6:12 pm

I am disappointed.
Yes, TomK obviously does not agree with the Peralta Stones and the conclusions (or lack thereof) that some favour.
That is no reason to attack him for being 'double-faced' - I have read more and had more information about the Superstition Mountains from the Chronicles than from anywhere else. I have always said that I have been sitting on the fence as far as the Peralta Stones are concerned - I don't know whether or not they are real. There are people I have respect for that says they are fakes and he claims to have a good idea as to who made them and why. Others believe them intrinsically - well, untill they are proven real, I am still a fence-sitter and will remain so.

Still, I am disappointed that this site has become an attack on a well-respected writer and prospector - I would have expected more of it.

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat May 15, 2010 7:39 pm

Roy/LoneStar

If you choose not to believe in the stone maps, that is up to you.
If you wish to voice your opinion that they are fakes, please present something that supports your belief.

If you find fault with anything in my article please point it out.
LoneStar wrote:There are people I have respect for that says they are fakes and he claims to have a good idea as to who made them and why.
I am sure we all know who you are talking about here loneStar. Are you aware of the fact that this same individual, went so far as to make a claim that Tom Kollenborn was involved in making the stone maps?
LoneStar wrote:Still, I am disappointed that this site has become an attack on a well-respected writer and prospector - I would have expected more of it.
I believe there are a lot of underlying circumstances that you and some other readers may not be aware of, so I will just overlook that remark. Never the less, this discussion is not an attack on Mr. Kollenborn, it is a challenge of the accuracy of the information he is presenting in his article.

ie: It makes some attacks on individuals that are no longer alive to speak up in their own defense. I knew both of these men, and will be the first to admit, that I never saw either one of them walk on water, but to publicly hammer on the dead for their faults in a newspaper column, is in my opinion really disgusting. Additionally he goes on to try to tie this all together to the stone maps to strengthen his case.

ie: It presents half-truths about scams involved with the stone maps, that he has not identified or substantiated in any way.

ie: It challenges the authenticity of the stone maps based on the fact that they would have been confiscated if they were authentic, and does not acknowledge the fact that they were confiscated.

Jim Hatt

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by LoneStar » Sat May 15, 2010 8:04 pm

Jim Hatt said:
If you wish to voice your opinion that they are fakes, please present something that supports your belief.
I believe I said I was "sitting on the fence" - voicing my opinion that whatever I have read about them did not convince me one way or the other. I do not believe I have to furnish a definite 'proof' one way or the other - it's all a matter of trying to read between lines and see who has the most 'clout' (seeing that I try to judge what others have written - that is _my_ way of researching)

I don't really care whether TomK has money running into his account per word or not - he has as much right as anyone (probably more than most) to make up for his efforts - as have you, Jim.

Obviously you are more than upset about what he has written - I still do not believe that gives you the right to use this forum to attack him.

Thank you for letting me post this.

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat May 15, 2010 8:13 pm

LoneStar,

I apologize if I misunderstood you.

In the future, if you (or anyone else) wish to participate in this discussion, please introduce yourself, and sign your posts, so we all know who we are talking to here. This thrust of this topic is on accountability and credibility. There is neither one in anonymous posts.

LoneStar wrote:Obviously you are more than upset about what he has written - I still do not believe that gives you the right to use this forum to attack him.
If the AJ News would guarantee us all that our right to "Freedom of Speech" would be recognized, and our rebuttals to the "Kollenborn Chronicles" would be printed in the paper. I think we could be coaxed into sending them there instead of posting them here.

Jim

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