Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by oroblanco » Sat May 15, 2010 10:13 pm

Hola amigos <First part is largely addressed to our amigo Jim>,

I can't speak for the AJ News but think it would not hurt to send in a submission, presenting the opposing case to the article written by Tom K. If they won't run it, we would have reason to question the neutrality of the editors there, but they just might publish it.

I have been thinking about that statement earlier, about "They Are Among Us" as if those of us whom are not convinced the stone maps are genuine, are in some way a "traitor". Is that what you meant Jim? I sure don't consider myself to be a traitor, but I simply don't believe in the stone maps. I am not even willing to spend a lot of time trying to convince myself about them - they are not the only way to search for treasures. It is not something personal, and not trying to say that something Jim H wrote that I take exception to - to me, they are something that would require YEARS of work and many miles of hiking the Superstitions to get them solved, not something that someone staring at Google-earth glassy-eyed late into the wee hours of the night is going to magically figure out. The Peralta stones requires a major, major commitment to have any hope of winning - and I am not willing to make that commitment. I could be 100% wrong, and I would be more than happy to congratulate you (or whomever) when you find the treasures that the stone maps are believed to lead to.

I do not understand why some people get really angry when someone else doesn't think the same way they do - and only on very specific things like these stone maps or for some people, politics. What if I said, the Adolph Ruth map is 100% genuine, and you don't think it even good for T.P. - do you think we would have such a 'gut' reaction as we see whenever the stone maps are discussed? I say no we wouldn't, and have seen and had more than one such discussion about OTHER treasure maps, and none of them ever seem to end up getting as heated. So what IS it about the stone maps that always seems to divide treasure hunters into "hostile" camps?

I have asked several others this, just what was it about the stone maps, that "clicked" for them, that convinced them they are genuine, and have gotten different answers each time. Maybe if I were to study them just a bit more I would change my mind about them, or maybe if I could study them in hand rather than just photos it would tip the balance I don't know. I just can't put a lot of faith in any treasure map - not just the stone ones.

Good luck and good hunting Jim and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun May 16, 2010 12:46 am

oroblanco wrote:Maybe if I were to study them just a bit more I would change my mind about them, or maybe if I could study them in hand rather than just photos it would tip the balance I don't know.

Roy,

re: They Walk Among Us -

Yes, "They Walk Among Us". You certainly can apply that to People who constantly admit that they have no interest in the stone maps, do not believe in them, and then admit that they have never spent any time trying to understand them.

What I will never understand, how those same people cannot resist jumping into every conversation they see about them, unless it is just to annoy the people who have researched them, and concluded that they are authentic. "They Walk Among Us"

I could be wrong, but (in my opinion) people who enter into a conversation about a subject, which they know nothing about, and have no interest in, and disagree with others whom are well versed in the subject, are just going out of their way to make a nuisance of themselves.

Yet... "They DO Walk Among Us".

It is my guess that in the beginning the individuals who tore down the Majove Cross, likewise knew nothing about it's history, what it stood for, and who put it there. All they knew was that it looked to them like it did not belong there. By the time they did learn what it was all about, they had already become bitter enemies with the others who erected it, and just hung around to enjoy the opportunity to annoy them any way they could.

"They DO Walk Among Us"

Perhaps I would not have been so annoyed with Tom’s comments (STORY) about the stone maps, and the lack of mineralization in the Superstition Mountains. If I had not read so many of his “stories” about lost mines “rich beyond belief” out there, and he did not have so many “errors” in his history of the stone maps.

If they are going to be allowed to walk among us… They should at least be required by law to Wear A Sign, that gives the rest of us, a little bit of a heads-up to make a wide swing around them!

Again Roy, I apologize for being so blunt, but I am not amused by any of this.

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by cubfan64 » Sun May 16, 2010 4:42 am

Time for a friendly post from one of your moderators. I have a few comments to make, so please bear with me as I try my best to put them into the appropriate words.

First of all, as I said earlier in this thread - this topic is going to be walking a very fine line between questioning facts and opinions and making personal attacks. I'm trying very hard to keep us either on that line or on the "right" side of it, but I'm not sure it's going to be successful.

With that said, I would first like to request that each person who posts in this thread use their real name. It's often easier to say some things when anonymous, but when you have to place a name next to your post, you may think twice about not only what you say, but the manner in which you say it. As a reminder, it's often wise to wait 24 hours before hitting the "submit" button when you react to a specific post.

I have 2 issues with this thread right now...

1) It seems to be focusing in specifically on the authenticity of the Stone Maps - if it continues down that very specific road, I will request that it be removed from this forum as I don't feel it would belong here at that point.

2) I'm concerned at where this topic is going without Mr. Kollenborn's participation. As I understood it, a couple of his last "Chronicles" articles were focused on this history of the mountains in regards to scams, lack of positive proof of gold/treasure and other assorted "oddities" in the mountains.

I know it can be taken as a "slam" on both those who are currently exploring and searching as well as the memories of those many men and women who spent countless years of their lives searching for the very same things. On the other hand, it can also be taken as simply "stories" related to the history of the mountains, areas and legends.

If Mr. Kollenborn does not choose to defend some of the opinions he expressed in his articles, I'm concerned that this thread will diminish into a series of arguments back and forth between those who question the content and reasons for those stories and those folks who support Mr. Kollenborn. Without his input, I'm not clear where this specific thread is going.

If the posters are willing to discuss the FACTS of Mr. Kollenborn's articles without making it appear that Tom has an agenda or suggesting they believe they know what Tom's motivations are, I think there can still be good discussion without his presence, however if it continues on it's current path without his input, I would like to know what the original poster who started this (Kurt - silenthunter) thread intends.

As a last comment for me regarding the Stone Maps specifically. There is a reason I choose not to involve myself in the discussion and have struggled to express that reason. As usual it took someone else to word it exactly right.

Oro said...
to me, they are something that would require YEARS of work and many miles of hiking the Superstitions to get them solved, not something that someone staring at Google-earth glassy-eyed late into the wee hours of the night is going to magically figure out. The Peralta stones requires a major, major commitment to have any hope of winning - and I am not willing to make that commitment. I could be 100% wrong, and I would be more than happy to congratulate you (or whomever) when you find the treasures that the stone maps are believed to lead to.


I hope my comments come through clearly - if anyone has something they would like to address to me privately, please e-mail me at paulshimek@comcast.net and I'll be happy to discuss anything with you.

Kurt (silenthunter) - could you think about my question about this thread for a bit and respond with where you would like to see it go if Mr. Kollenborn chooses not to respond?

Thanks,
Paul


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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by coazon de oro » Sun May 16, 2010 8:28 am

Hell o fellow treasure hunters, I don't think Tom's opinion or change of mind is New's material. He has a right to change his mind or express his opinions. It already went public via the Lost Kollenborn Chronicles. Anyway no so called expert on the PSM's can prove they are fake. That alone is reason enough for any skeptics to give them the benefit of the doubt. Homar P. Olivarez

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun May 16, 2010 12:13 pm

coazon de oro wrote:I don't think Tom's opinion or change of mind is New's material. He has a right to change his mind or express his opinions.
Hi Homar,

You have been pretty quiet lately. Getting a little warm now for you to be getting out into the mtns isn't it? It's getting just about right for Kurt and I to be getting into our "Power Mode" now.

I am not sure Tom has changed his opinion about anything. In fact I have never been quite sure what his opinion ever was about anything. Have you ever once saw anything he ever wrote, that included the words "I think", "I Believe" or "In My Opinion"?

I don't think so... He presents everything as if it is ABSOLUTE FACT! Regardless of the fact that what he writes one week, may be 180 degrees from something he had previously written. I guess a writer can get away with that kind of stuff, if he calls his work "Just Stories". If I want to read fiction I'd rather be reading Science Fiction.

Whether I'm reading about he Sup's, the LDM or Treasure stories. I at least want to be reading something that the author himself believes is true.

Say hello to the Mrs. Homar, and keep her cool this summer, but don't let her get too "out of shape" for the trail before the cooler temperatures roll around again. :lol:

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Sun May 16, 2010 6:09 pm

First, let me say, up front - I've been reading Tom K's stuff for as long as I can remember (which gets shorter every year).

Secondly - I am a DEVIOUS person, in a sense. I have also, for as long as I can remember, been able to take both sides of a discussion. (I think they call that "split-brained"). I have been able to do that so well, I always got "stuck" in the un-conventional side of debates when I was in school. Some people can do that very well, others, not so well. It is a most difficult task when you have to argue the exact opposite of what you may personally believe.

However, our country depends on people being able to do that. We call it jury duty. You have to be able to hear the arguements made by both parties, and make a decision based on ONLY that - not what you have seen in other matters, or what you believed before you got there. It's an important quality - and terribly difficult.

However, it can also make it seem like you have two opposing views - when in fact, you are just taking the information available. I could argue the virtues of anything, pretty much - and I could also debate the other side, probably just as well.

A writer can either editoralize - or, they can write simply - events. I see nothing in Tom K's writing that does anything different than presenting two sides of a "story". I emphasize the word "story" only because each writing is a part - not the whole, therefore, there is always more to add - so, a continuing story.

There is absolutely no doubt that people have been swindled. Arizona is THE top state for swindling, when it comes to land ownership. But, even then, there are two sides (at least) to every story, and every event - usually there are many more sides to every story. Add to that, each individual has done their own homework, in most cases, and has drawn conclusions.

I am sure that there are people who have done many more investigations, and work, on the Peralta Stones - more than I, certainly, and definitely more than Tom K - and some folks who have spent year upon year, putting the pieces together.
They all have their reasons for what they believe - but that doesn't mean that some other people have not gone a different path - right or wrong - there are folks who will take your money and give you nothing in return, and there are people who will not. There are people who are misinformed - who think a check to someone will get them a goldmine - we call them victims. Geesh, I have a friend who loves a good treasurehunt - but his idea of a good treasure hunt is to read a little info, make a conclusion, and then wants to drive wherever, open the door to the SUV and pick it up --- in other words, very unrealistic - but, not unusual. There are so many scams out there for one reason, and one reason only - they work. Not just about the Stones - its the "you have won" scams, and the "partnership scams" and the "all I need is 2000 dollars" scams etc. They work because people fall prey to them. And there will always be people who fall victim to scams, so it will continue.

You can ask Roy about the scam that concerned us - one day someone came and put a sheriff's sale sign on our property.
We caught the woman before she left - to make a long story short, a bank had lent money on a piece of property, to a person who didn't own the property. The bank was from out of state, and, apparently, the scammers used a couple of pictures taken from the road, to give to the bank, as collateral, for their loan. Then they skipped town, of course. The bank foreclosed on them, and put the sheriff's sale up on the collateral - but - not the right person. It didn't take too long to figure it out, and find out who it was, but, the bank lost out to the scam. Identity theft is rampant - because there are people out there who prey on other people.

Everything in the world is subject to some kind of scam. That does not make the item "untrue" or "unreal", it just makes the item a tool for the scammer.

To write about these things is not a change in attitude or person ideas - it is simply a telling of an event.

Beth (Mrs.O)

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by oroblanco » Sun May 16, 2010 6:28 pm

Jim Hatt wrote
Roy,

re: They Walk Among Us -

Yes, "They Walk Among Us". You certainly can apply that to People who constantly admit that they have no interest in the stone maps, do not believe in them, and then admit that they have never spent any time trying to understand them.

What I will never understand, how those same people cannot resist jumping into every conversation they see about them, unless it is just to annoy the people who have researched them, and concluded that they are authentic. "They Walk Among Us"

I could be wrong, but (in my opinion) people who enter into a conversation about a subject, which they know nothing about, and have no interest in, and disagree with others whom are well versed in the subject, are just going out of their way to make a nuisance of themselves.

Yet... "They DO Walk Among Us".

It is my guess that in the beginning the individuals who tore down the Majove Cross, likewise knew nothing about it's history, what it stood for, and who put it there. All they knew was that it looked to them like it did not belong there. By the time they did learn what it was all about, they had already become bitter enemies with the others who erected it, and just hung around to enjoy the opportunity to annoy them any way they could.

"They DO Walk Among Us"

Perhaps I would not have been so annoyed with Tom’s comments (STORY) about the stone maps, and the lack of mineralization in the Superstition Mountains. If I had not read so many of his “stories” about lost mines “rich beyond belief” out there, and he did not have so many “errors” in his history of the stone maps.

If they are going to be allowed to walk among us… They should at least be required by law to Wear A Sign, that gives the rest of us, a little bit of a heads-up to make a wide swing around them!

Again Roy, I apologize for being so blunt, but I am not amused by any of this.

Jim
Well Jim, I never said that I haven't spent ANY time studying the stone maps, only that I haven't spent as much time as you. I also wonder about folks who join into a discussion ONLY to attack the topic; and see it all the time. There is a fellow on another forum who seems to have this as his job description, whenever it relates to anything Jesuit and frequently any treasure story at all. <He is not a member here as far as I know so won't say any more about him.>

Cubfan wrote
I hope my comments come through clearly - if anyone has something they would like to address to me privately, please e-mail me <snip>
I didn't come here to trash the stone maps or Tom K or anyone else. Good luck and good hunting Jim, Paul and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun May 16, 2010 7:09 pm

oroblanco wrote:I also wonder about folks who join into a discussion ONLY to attack the topic; and see it all the time. There is a fellow on another forum who seems to have this as his job description, whenever it relates to anything Jesuit and frequently any treasure story at all. <He is not a member here as far as I know so won't say any more about him.>
Yes I know the type Roy. They have absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion, but they get some weird sense of satisfaction, from annoying everyone else who is trying to contribute something.

As Paul mentioned. This is not the right topic for even getting into the subject of whether or not, the stone maps are authentic. Gollum has a forum dedicated to that subject at:

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1500

Bear in mind tho, that he has spent a huge amount of his own time into researching the subject also, and although he is very generous in sharing the results of that research, he has very little tolerance for people that show any hint, of an intent to just annoy him, rather than learn from his experience.

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by silent hunter » Mon May 17, 2010 6:28 am

Tom K I was asked by paul the reason i asked you to join this forum. I only wanted to here your debate,your facts not your story. Jim the same the facts.

I have a map I found that looks alot like the peralta maps. I am convinced the stones are alot older than thought to be. I ask again to present proof not opinions or I will ask Paul to erase the thread!!!

As it stands now I believe the peralta maps lead to a place. While on a trip to the area of the peralta stone maps I found two of the three markers from my maps.

There are three locators on each map I use to locate areas hidden by people of times past. I soon will find the third marker and solve the maps from Zuni to the superstition mountains. I only intended this to be a fact finding thread to find out where everyone else went wrong with there search.

Kurt P

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by javaone » Mon May 17, 2010 6:41 am

“They Walk Among Us” – I am confused, is this not a “discussion forum”?

I entered this forum because of the “stone maps” and because of them I have found many interesting things, including the vast beauty of the Superstitions – Again, it’s about “Quality not Quantity”.

This particular topic, may I remind you all, is about the “Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions”. Discussion is the key word. I do not agree with Tom K’s last article, but even if I did, it should not make me an enemy. The gist I got out of Cubfan64, Roy, lonestar’s first posts in this topic was “can’t we all just get along”, not attacking the stones necessarily. Even though the stones were a part of Tom K’s last article it was not solely about them, thus opening, imo, a variety of topics within. What is the point of having a discussion without opposing views – one sided? How can anyone learn from that?

In a forum such as this, it is not a requirement for folks to put forth their real names. If this is the case then it should be made clear when you first sign up. To force someone to do so in this particular topic is merely an unfair ploy to get them to “shut-up”.

Just because some have spent many years on something does not make them right. I have seen many times where someone has dug and dug into something only to come up empty handed. Then the next day a child digs and finds the answer. I do not pretend to be an expert on any subject, but I do learn from and dig deeper when there is an opposing view.

Roy always ends with – “I hope you find the treasures you seek”, I end with – “but not before I find them first”. :roll:

Jerry Jester < (my real name)

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