Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

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Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Mon May 17, 2010 10:49 am

LDMGOLD wrote:TERRY and others:

I was quite sure somebody would know how to find the articles. They are no secret. I will continue to write about those who misrepresent the legends or stories of these mountains to generate funds or money for their own use and purpose. Over the past fifty years I have seen many people lose a lot of money by investing in the many tall tales told by people who claim they have found the gold of Superstition Mountain or know where it is located. A small percentage of them are now serving time or have served time. I have no plans on getting into those stories. Also I am on this site to enjoy the desert Southwest, not lost gold mines and stories.

Thanks again for the fantastic desert site.

Tom Kollenborn
re:I will continue to write about those who misrepresent the legends or stories of these mountains to generate funds or money for their own use and purpose."

Hello Tom,

I believe that if you look close... That is exactly what the rest of us are trying to do here. It pains me terribly that you fail to see that. There is no doubt in my mind, that if you saw someone publicly distorting, and ignoring historical facts, in the manner you have in that article, you would be yelling about it even louder than we are. Clearly, you have not been holding yourself (lately), to the same standards you have always held others to.

Thank you for the compliment about fantastic desert site. I know Jim_b will appreciate it, and hope you continue to enjoy it, and share your beautiful photos (And Sharon's) for a long time to come.

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by cubfan64 » Mon May 17, 2010 11:18 am

Jim - you said:
Paul,

I don't really see why Tom's participation is required in order to discuss he article that was published, and widely circulated.

As long as we restrict our comments to what is contained in the article itself, we should be able to consider that as Tom's input to the discussion.

Of course... He is free to voice any objection to the rebuttals presented in this forum any time he wishes to.

Any disagreements to that?
I didn't say it was required, just that it would be difficult :)

There's nothing wrong with disputing specific issues Tom expresses as facts in his articles, but without Tom's input explaining the basis for those facts, it's going to be a short, fairly one sided discussion.

Thank you for posting some of the specific issues associated with Tom's articles. As Kurt stated, that sort of thing will keep us focused on the right things here.

Oh, as far as any e-mail I'm getting related to this, it's been practically none.

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Mon May 17, 2010 11:33 am

cubfan64 wrote:without Tom's input explaining the basis for those facts, it's going to be a short, fairly one sided discussion.

Paul,

As can be seen in Tom's last post. He clearly has no intention of acknowledging any of the errors, or misrepresentations in his article, that have been pointed out to him.

It may be that the discussion is over and ends with that. If so, then everyone can draw their own conclusions, from what has already been presented.

Jim

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by silent hunter » Mon May 17, 2010 12:36 pm

Tom all I can say is "SILENCE IS A PRIVALAGE" You have that right

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by silent hunter » Mon May 17, 2010 1:57 pm

I would say to all thanks for your input and good huntings to all.

Kurt P

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by gollum » Mon May 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Hey Mr Kollenborn,

Been too busy at work to spend much time online this last week. Sorry I missed this.

I don't think anybody could argue your background or knowledge of everything concerning the Superstition Mountains. I see you said that you didn't come here to discuss Lost Gold Mines and such, but with your vast knowledge of the area and its' history, I think that would be a waste (although I do understand that you don't want to waste too much time arguing with people). HAHAHA

Also, I have seen many things attributed to you that may or may not have been accurately attributed. It would be nice to have you around to deny or verify such things.

Regarding ownership and possible confiscation of the Stone Maps, the final word I received from Ray Grant (Az. Mining & Minerals Museum), was the the Stone Maps were donated to the Flagg Foundation & AM&MM by Boyd Cochrane. As part of a lawsuit brought by Boyd Cochrane against Clarence Mitchell and MOEL Inc. the Cochranes believed that they were owners of the Stone Maps because of the money they invested in the Corp. The State of Arizona forced them to donate the stones to a non profit organization. It was likely that it was at this time that the FBI had gotten involved and Bob Corbin had seen them in the possession of the FBI in Phoenix. This would have been in 1968-1969. The Stone Maps were donated in 1969.

Best-Mike

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by oroblanco » Mon May 17, 2010 7:12 pm

Jim Hatt wrote
Is this enough to make my point, that the Kollenborn “Chronicle” Article in question contains inaccurate, incomplete and misleading information, and a whole lot of “authorial interpretation and comment” or shall I dig for more?
Quit soft-pedaling it Jim, and say what you really mean! :mrgreen: I was going to let this subject drop amigo but you know, even the Encyclopedia Brittanica has errors, inaccuracies, and misleading information and that IS put forth as an absolute solid 'reference' type of publication, whose word we are supposed to take as "gospel". I don't think Tom K's Chronicles fall into that same category, heck even in the title it is the KOLLENBORN chronicles, not the Superstition Mountains Chronicles etc.

I won't pester you any further on this as it appears the main issue has been resolved.
Roy

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Mon May 17, 2010 7:43 pm

oroblanco wrote:I won't pester you any further on this as it appears the main issue has been resolved.
Roy
Better not Roy. :mrgreen:

As you know... I will wrestle anybody that attacks the stone maps right to the mat. :lol:

There is absolutely no case for them being fakes, but there is a heck of a lot of circumstantial evidence (growing larger all he time) that they are authentic.
oroblanco wrote:even the Encyclopedia Brittanica has errors, inaccuracies,
You seem to be overlooking the point Roy. My complaint with the article in the Kollenborn Chronicles, is string of errors and inaccuracies, all in the same direction, which in my opinion, tends to indicate a desire to mislead the public into forming wrong conclusions.

If there are any valid arguments out there, that support the idea that the stone maps were fabricated to promote some kind of fraud. I would sure like to hear them! I have searched for them myself for the better part of last two decades.

The only arguments that exist in support of the stone maps not being authentic, were all fabricated out of the careful alignment of errors, inaccuracies, and misrepresented information.

As a recognized "Historian" we would expect Mr. Kollenborn to be committed to finding, and protecting the known history of the stone maps.

Jim Hatt

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Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Ray Ruiz » Wed May 19, 2010 2:28 pm

This is an interesting discussion!

Ray

Jim Hatt

Re: Kollenborn Chronicles Discussions

Post by Jim Hatt » Wed May 19, 2010 5:17 pm

Welcome to the Forums Ray!

For those of you who do not recognize his name. Ray Ruiz (He pronounces Ruiz like "Reese") is the owner of the Bluebird Mine and gift shop, and the Ray Ruiz Marina across the road from the Goldfield Ghost Town.

Ray is a full blooded Cherokee Indian born on the Reservation in Oklahoma on July 27, 1913. He came to Arizona at the age of 3, and lived on a reservation here when he was growing up. He will be 97 years young in July this year.

He purchased the Bluebird property in 1947 (If my memory is correct) and has resided there ever since. Prior to that he owned and operated the Canyon Lake Marina for about 20 years. Ray Ruiz Marina is a Franchised Dealer and repair facility for Johnson, Mercury and Evenrude boat motors.

He types with two fingers, and has to search for every letter on the keyboard to do it, so don't expect him to be making too many posts, and no lengthy ones at all. :D But he sure can READ and loves doing it! Especially on subjects that he is interested in like this one. Would you believe he can read the names and numbers in a phone book without the aid of glasses?

Ray has known just about every Dutch Hunter that ever entered the Superstition Mountains, and loves to sit around talking about how things were "Back in the Day". If you ever get in the area where the Bluebird is located, be sure to stop in and say hello to him. He talks a lot faster than he types. ;) He can usually be found in his shop 7 days a week, puttering with one kind of boat motor or another.

Jim

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