Montezuma's Treasure

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cubfan64
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by cubfan64 »

I didn't realize Randy had his own forum - how did I miss that???
WixMoran
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

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Jim Hatt wrote:Wix,

You are into this subject way over my head Buddy. Best I can do for you is try to keep the "Hecklers" out of your conversation, and let you discuss it in peace.

Jim
I've never minded hecklers much. I fully accept that I have my own point of view but a big part of learning and uncovering new things is considering possibilites that haven't occurred to me. Nothing Joe said struck me as "heckling" and I've been on the receiving end of plenty. Thanks for giving me a spot on the board to stimulate conversation though.
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by WixMoran »

cubfan64 wrote:I didn't realize Randy had his own forum - how did I miss that???
It's Utah-themed and eay enough to overlook. I came here with my data for some fresh perspective, particularly since I don't have as much data about Montezuma's treasure in Arizona as I might like.

The Arizona information is a bit muttled, particularly since some of the Southern AZ Indian tribes worshipped "Montezuma" who is not to be confused with (though is likely, in someway inspired by) the Aztec emperor.

R.G. Babcock published a book 25 years ago give or take that was available in the want-add section of some treasure magazines of the period. He makes the case for the Aztec hoard being hidden in seven seperate locations to coincide with Aztec religious traditions. He goes on to substantiate this claim with the idea that the Lost Dutchman is one of the 7 cache sites. The crux of his evidence is a letter he has in his possession from a man who claimed to have been led to the cache site by a Native American somewhere in the Superstion wilderness.

In fairness, he also tries to connect the Victorio Peak treasure site in New Mexico to one of the 7 sites as well. For me his outlines a perfect example of how I don't have to be 100% on board with someone else's theories to give them some measure of consideration in my own studies. I'm not sure I'm convinced but I was curious if anyone else, particularly people who have researed Arizona and the LDM, had any insight.
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

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cubfan64 wrote:I didn't realize Randy had his own forum - how did I miss that???
Ahhh - doh, my mistake - wrong Randy :)

I see now where I misunderstood as WixMoran IS Randy!!! I've run across the name Randy Bradford a number of times doing treasure searches. My apologize for misunderstanding.

I really wish I had something something of value to add to the discussion, but as far as Montezuma and the Aztecs are concerned, I'm afraid the best I can do is learn things by reading your comments such as the paper you copied and posted here. Wish I could comment more.
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by WixMoran »

cubfan64 wrote:
cubfan64 wrote:I didn't realize Randy had his own forum - how did I miss that???
I see now where I misunderstood as WixMoran IS Randy!!! I've run across the name Randy Bradford a number of times doing treasure searches. My apologize for misunderstanding.

I really wish I had something something of value to add to the discussion, but as far as Montezuma and the Aztecs are concerned, I'm afraid the best I can do is learn things by reading your comments such as the paper you copied and posted here. Wish I could comment more.
Not everyone has much to add, it's satisfying knowing I've sparked someone's interest and maybe gave you something to think about.

Running accross my name isn't too surprising, I've had a fairly strong presence online for 10 years, mostly about this same subject...that and the Rhoades Mines. I've tried to generate interest and dialogue in a variety of forums with varying degress of success. Probably a few people wandering around her there have spent some time on my forum as well (I hope). One thing about the internet, it's been a great tool for gettingi n contact with like-minded individuals.
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by i-tsarl-tsu- i »

Randy,

I believe I have copied every post I have made on this forum, except for the one where I replied to your question. My answer was so innocuous, that I just assumed Jim would not delete or censure it. Glad to see that you did not deem it heckling.

I avoided replying for awhile, hoping someone else would get involved. When that didn't happen, I decided to try and get a conversation going. I would still like for that to happen.

I am familiar with your research and have a keen interest in the history of Mexico. Anyone who visits my home could vouch for that fact. I have one or two books on the subject, ;) and have followed your own posts for awhile now.

Many treasure fans would, pretty much, bypass the documented history of the country and concentrate on the treasure hunter history. At one time, that's exactly what I did. That led me to believing in Jesuit treasure in the Superstitions.

If by being a heckler, means I have another opinion on the subject, I reckon I'm a heckler. If Jim boots me off of this subject or site, I will be happy to exchange information with you......anywhere.

While we may disagree on a few things, I believe we can do it respectfully and still end up friends.

Take care and good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by WixMoran »

I agree with you in one regard Joe: While I firmly beleive the case can be made historically (and I beleive I did so in my reasearch paper) that the treasure both existed, and was missing when the Spanish finished what they started, there is very little historical data to even hint at what happend at that point. For me there has been a long struggle to back-trace the paper trail and to gain some insight into the origins of the "Two Moon" story but unfortuantely it has proven to be a daunting task. I've discovered the hard way that many treasure writers are wonderful (soemtimes) writers but poor historians with no desire to cite sources. I'm a firm beleiver in retracing the steps of writers so the inability of previous writers to leave a somewhat conspicous trail has always been frustrating. The "Two Moon" story seems to have, as best I can tell, originated in the 30's and 40's writing, while the notion that Montezuma had treasure spirited to the North seems to be as old as the West itself. Historical sources ar a good insight, but one has to be careful when evaluating the overall credability of the sources as well. It's amazing that substantial historical events such as the death of Montezuma can be disputed with historical sources, which poses a poor commentary on the liklihood of finding details about somethign as obscure and secretive as the hiding of a substantial treasure. If there can be debate over the authentic events of something significant and well-witnessed as his death, one can't help but wodner how badly 400 years of "history" can muddy the waters on something liek a treasure site to begin with.
Jim Hatt

Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by Jim Hatt »

[quote="WixMoran"
I've never minded hecklers much.
[/quote]

Gottchya Wix, I will let you be the Judge in this topic.

If you ever need it, there is a small Icon near the bottom right corner of every post with a red "!" in it. It is for reporting posts that you feel are inappropriate or disrupting the conversation. You can flag any post with it and bring it directly to the attention of the Management Team for review.

Jim
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by i-tsarl-tsu- i »

Randy,

It's never been hard to see that you have done your homework on this subject. While I may not agree with your conclusions, I do admire the good research you have done. It's impressive.

Don't mean to disrupt the flow of your conversation here, but thought I would add a few comments.

I noticed you were using the work/words of Bernal Díaz del Castillo to lend weight to the argument that Montezuma's treasure was hidden from the Spaniards. As I recall his account, a good deal of that treasure was taken out of the city and some of that was lost in the process. Most of the gold had been melted down into ingots.

I believe over 400 Spaniards escaped. Most of them carried gold and a number of the horses were loaded with gold as well.

When Cortez returned, after a bit of torture, most of the gold that the Aztecs had recovered from the canals and the pile that had been left at the palace was recovered. I believe, at the end of his account Diaz states that there was no treasure left.

I would need to revisit that part of his book and will do that this weekend. As I remember, it's towards the end of his writing. The details of exactly how they recovered the treasure escape me right now.

I believe it's more than possible that there was a "Montezuma Treasure". My guess, from what I have read, is that it ended up in the hands of Cortez and his captains. It had to fade into the mist of history to protect them from the king.

I don't believe Sahagun or Portilla's many Aztec accounts really clear things up that much, as to treasure. After all, Miguel Leon-Portilla's book "The Broken Spears" when correctly interpreted actual reads: "The Broken Bones". :shock:

I am at our store right now, so you probably shouldn't take anything I have written to the bank. If my head is nodding the wrong way, and you feel it may be keeping others from participating, just say the word and I will back out of the conversation without any hard feelings.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by Gerald D. Sain »

SAIN here;

Randy, I have some information on what I think is Montezuma's Treasure, or possibly one of them.
In 1985, I hiked into the Superstitions and found something very odd.
It was three holes, about 3ft. in dia., about 4ft. apart in a triangle.
If you would like me to e-mail you a drawing of such, and the location, answer this post.
I can't do any hiking anymore, but I would like to see someone find out if I'm right or is this Mother Natures way of designing rock formations.
Is this your e-mail at the begining of this forum
GERALD :mrgreen:
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