Montezuma's Treasure

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:10 am

HOLA amigos,
I realize this thread is growing a bit 'old' but it is a fascinating subject with many possibilities. I ran across an article on 'giant snakes' in Utah, which also tells of an underground city in the Henry mountains. As by one theory the Aztecs originally came from the Utah area, is it possible that they looked there for a safe place to put their treasure out of the grasp of the Spaniards? It is a very long march -granted- and hostile tribes virtually surrounded them also granted, but is it SO far-fetched? I would like to hear your views. Here is the link to that article

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/piute-snake/

As far as the idea that the Spanish got all the treasure after they re-conquered Tenochtitlan, keep in mind that it would have been wise for the Aztecs to make the Spaniards believe that they had. Amerindians were reknowned for their ability to endure the most horrific tortures, so info extracted via that method would be highly suspect. I don't have my own refs handy but if memory serves, there were at least a couple of items which the Spanish specifically remembered seeing in the vault prior to the Nochte de Tristan, which were never recovered after their final conquest and these were sought after without luck.

Also Mr Sain, if you are still following this discussion, I would like to see a sketch of what you found. I don't have a theory on what they might be (yet) but if you would care to send me a sketch by email, here is my address:
<Roy_A_Decker@yahoo.com>

Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by roc2rol » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:44 pm

Hello All!

I came across something that relates to the Aztec and the Superstitions .
In Helen Corbin book, “Bible of LDM…” is a newspaper clipping from the
‘Arizona Daily Herald’ October 5, 1899 (pg 233). This article is entitled:
Jim Bark’s Find
Old Olla Found on Superstition Filled With Aztec Arrowheads!

Well it’s a strange article and the first thing I had to do was look up the word olla.
---Spanish, from Old Spanish, from Latin, variant of aula, aulla, pot, jar---

I’m sure most folks have access to the book.
I don’t have a copier and not sure of copy write infringements issues or I would post it.

This is all very intersting on many levels...

E:D

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:08 pm

Roc2rol wrote
Jim Bark’s Find
Old Olla Found on Superstition Filled With Aztec Arrowheads!
Dang amigo I forgot all about that - thank you for posting it!
Roy

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by roc2rol » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:58 pm

Hi Roy-
I’m in way over my head to an extent on the Montezuma subject.
But the Bark article really interests me on several other levels.
What was the purpose of publishing the story,
how do they know the arrowheads were of Aztec origin,
where are some of them now, how does it relate to LDM
and the mineral material they were made of---
are just some of the questions that come to mine.

Anyway this isn’t the thread for such speculations…
-and thanks for the greeting!

Ed

Jim Hatt

Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:07 pm

Hi Ed,

I can answer one of you questions. I read somewhere that all of the arrowheads and the olla, were donated to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C.

Roy may be able to answer some of the others.

Jim

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:22 pm

<Jim Hatt wrote>
Roy may be able to answer some of the others.
I wish I could in this case, but I don't know who Mr Bark got to identify the arrowheads and olla as Aztec. It is possible that the identification is incorrect, that it was a guess to say they were Aztec. However genuine Aztec artifacts have been found scattered across a rather wide region of the American southwest, including New Mexico, Arizona and even into Utah. They were definitely having some kind of interaction with the peoples of these regions in ancient or recent time. (Recent being up to 1500 AD)

Arrow head styles vary over time and culture, even within the same culture so it is a difficult thing to pin down exactly who made any particular example. I am no expert (true amateur) in arrowheads, love to look for them and then try to ID but don't know specifically what would say "Aztec" about a point. I do know that early examples have a deep notch in the base, while later examples have a "stem" with shoulders but they are similar to others in both instances.

I would put more faith in the ID of the olla jar than the arrowheads, especially as the arrow points were trade items used rather like money - so an arrowhead might be made in Texas and end up in Sinaloa, and this has been the case in some examples where the origin of the stone has been traced.

Wish I could be of more help on this one, perhaps a letter to the Smithsonian might be fruitful?
Roy

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by roc2rol » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:49 pm

That would be fantastic if the Smithsonian has some of these artifacts!

Certainly if some of the arrowheads are available
Today’s knowledge could determine origin
of both the material an style of the arrowheads.

I had no idea that arrowheads were traded. But it makes sense.
My idea was that these arrowheads might have been jewelry
Made from moss agate is a pretty decorative stone.
Anyway it would make them even that much more valuable.

As for the olla hopefully it is intact!
The article stated that the ‘olla came to pieces as soon as Jim touched it.’
It must have been a pretty good size jar also!
Over 800 arrowheads is quite a cache!

I’m all for drafting a letter to the museum.
Are there any descendants of the Bark family line?

thxs for the thoughful reply guys!

E :D

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by roc2rol » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:20 pm

I was informed that Arizona Highways
circa 1945 had a picture of an olla
filled with arrowheads

I’m doing the research and was wondering
if anyone might have seen
or recalled this?

Ed

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:53 pm

Ed you must have an excellent memory! We had a subscription to AZ Highways some years ago but had to let it run out. I can't recall seeing an article with pics like you mentioned but my memory isn't so good. If you could find photos that show enough detail I would bet it would be possible to determine the origins.

I did do some hunting for info on Aztec artifacts turning up in AZ, CO, UT and NM but so far no luck; I am sure I read that they had found evidence proving there was contact, related to the turquoise or jade trade.
Roy

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by roc2rol » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:40 pm

That trading would be a key element to their existence in the Superstitions
Even if the Aztec weren’t there per se
also moss agate is used quite regularily for arrows
and an enhancement for trading
my theory

The Bark newspaper article is peculiar.
The story is backed up in the article by Kimball
I’ve found one reference about him in article by Kellenborn
A well established person who lived in Mesa

What was Bark up to?
Where are those arrows?

Here is an Aztec knife that resides in the British Museum

Image

Unfortunately my photo is yellowed
that blade is much whiter

They figured it arrived in Europe by Cortes, maybe
the British Museum acquired it 1850’s
They also have turquoise mosaics mask
perhaps, representing leprous god Nanahuatzl
and a really cool double-headed mosaic serpent

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