Montezuma's Treasure

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Plays In The Dirt
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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by Plays In The Dirt » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:11 am

Somehiker,

No disrespect intended but after resizing the area you outlined and looking at it magnified I really don't see where the dark colored areas are anything more than discolorations in the rock. If you look on the face of the wall in other areas, and especially the area on the bottom just above the bushes, you'll see this same dark discoloration. Of course I could be wrong. Do you have a larger and higher resolution image to look at, the one you provided is very poor.

Image

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by Plays In The Dirt » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:46 am

In the following Photo the jury is out in my mind as to whether it's a glyph or not. I've shot hundreds of Petroglyph Photos in many locations so I've seen a lot of them (but I'm certainly no expert). I've cropped your image to the area that appears it could be some sort of rock art, and enhanced it to bring it out a little better. What is this supposed to say or depict?

Again, do you have a larger and higher resolution Photo that you can post?

Image

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by TradClimber » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:22 pm

From what I can make out in the photo (parallelogram with circle near the upper right vertex), it's unnatural. I know nothing about petroglyphs, but It's probably man made. My two cents. I would shadow the rock area with my body and use a hand or signal mirror to reflect from the sun a very shallow light upon the surface of the rock. That should tell you if it has been chopped or not and provide more definition. One can also wait until night and use a flashlight. That's an old trick that I used when looking for faint prints of lost hikers.

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by somehiker » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:55 pm

Plays and Trad:
It is not a petroglyph as in "pecked surface".There are lots of sites that feature Maya Glyphs and definitions for what they mean.This one is fairly typical of that style.The coyote head (facing left) at the right hand end is what caught my eye first.The writing in between the two symbols is also of interest.Its all in the eye of the beholder,I guess.I do have other photos,but these are good enough to illustrate that what we seek out there can be very old and weathered.Keep in mind that they were not created in an artist's studio in the first place,nor under the most comfortable conditions for the maker.
The large image on the canyon wall is centred directly over a small square ruin,built on leveled and cleared ground.There is an old trail that follows the bottom of the cliff and ends at the ruin.The entire area is riddled with pottery sherds,etc and features other man made alterations to the landscape such as still visible irrigation channels.Once again,it is really up to the viewer to decide whether or not the image is man made and if it warrants further study.


Regards:SH

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:58 pm

Hola amigos,

Thank you Somehiker for outlining the important areas. It is really hard to judge anything from photos, and you have examined them up close (in person) which makes a world of difference. Tool marks, like from chisels etc are tough to see from a photo and would be key to proving a carving IS a carving and not a natural formation.

Perhaps we are not seeing the details because when we read "Aztec carving" we expect to see something like this
Image

...but is it realistic to expect the Aztecs to have made elaborate carvings so far from their homelands, especially if they were trying to HIDE something?

Anyway thanks again Somehiker for sharing the photos and everyone for their opinions. The mystery of what happened to the vast gold and silver treasure seen and handled by Cortez before the La Noche Triste (retreat from Tenochtitlan) has puzzled folks for nearly 400 years, someday perhaps we will know the truth.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by somehiker » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:40 pm

Hi Roy:
The image on the canyon wall is big.At least 30 ft from the ground to the top of the "ball" on top of the head.The features are "reptillian" as "Quetzacoatl" was usually portrayed by both Maya and Aztec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukulkan

The Maya called him "Kukulcan",a name also used by the Toltec and he was the most important of their gods and in some traditions was credited with the creation of the "people".

He was portrayed in many ways by various artists dating as far back as 800BC on pottery,in wall paintings of single or varied colours (which is what has likely stained the rock face in this case) and in bas relief carving of solid rock.Some of these carvings are actually moulded stucco as are many of the more elaborate Maya glyphs and Aztec "carvings".The photo that you posted is actually one of stucco and as such will not show tool marks from chisels.
http://www.mesoweb.com/palenque/monumen ... rdance.pdf

The pics that I have posted here are certainly open to individual interpretation.To me,they represent possible evidence of other cultural influence within the Superstitions in the past.There may be more out there,but if we are to find it,we need first to believe in the possibility that such evidence may exist,then go search for it.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by oroblanco » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:30 pm

Hola amigo Somehiker,

That photo, is online and is described as a "stone carving" but there are other examples, the one I tried to post turned out to be too large - my point was that when a lot of us hear "Aztec carvings" they tend to expect something like that, which is probably not likely to find especially when they were trying to hide something.

About the tool marks - I don't think it would be possible to see any in a photo unless it were done at extremely close range, (inches or even less) but you have examined that site up close so I will take your word on it. Also if stone is polished, any tool marks will be reduced or even removed.

I suspect there is good reason why there are Amerindian legends of "Montezuma's treasure" being hidden in the American southwest. Something happened which was very much out of the ordinary, and that vast treasure has never been found. YET. :mrgreen:
Roy

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by KDF-TX » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:53 am

Very interesting reading!
We were discussing the Aztec in East Texas last night at our Gem & Mineral Society meeting.
A member has seen what he believes are Aztec drawings (winged serpent) near Trinity, Texas. He's going to send me the GPS coordinates if/when he finds them. I'm in Riverside- only about 10 miles from Trinity.
I found this forum when searching for the Guy E. Powell book "Latest Aztec Discoveries: Origin and Untold Riches".
Kevin

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www.pwgms.org

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by KDF-TX » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:21 am

I meant to say feathered not winged serpent.
I'm off to see for myself this morning...

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Re: Montezuma's Treasure

Post by TradClimber » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:20 am

Welcome to the forum TX. Good luck in searching for the feathered serpent.

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