Black Bart's Gold

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oroblanco
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by oroblanco »

Hola amigos,
This is an extremely long reply, so I must beg your indulgence (if anyone gets bored, just skip ahead) ;)

Roc2rol wrote
Wouldn’t it turn the world upside down if a Phoenician shipwreck was found off a South American coast!
Apparently not - for there have been several already found. One lies off Bimini island, was examined by a Yale professor who stated it is definitely Phoenician and dates to about 1200 BC. Another is off Honduras, which is Carthaginian (which are simply western Phoenicians) another in the "Bay of Jars" that has been called Roman but is definitely North African rather than Roman, and one was found on the coast of Mexico in the 1800's, "deeply buried in sands". Punic coins have turned up in 11 states (twelve if we count the latest one found in Wisconsin) and Numidian coins in two states (Numidia was a part of the Carthaginian or Punic empire) including Idaho, which is peculiar if you think about that one. As for other sorts of "hard evidence" just check out cotton - yes there are New World and Old World cotton varieties, but Spaniards found Amerindians raising Old World cotton; American corn shows up in ancient statues of India and (possibly) in Scotland at Rosslyn Chapel which was built before Columbus made his voyage; there are other products which proves there was contact in ancient times as well, such as peppers, sweet potatoes, peanuts (an American product which has been found in an ancient Chinese tomb) tobacco and coca which showed up in ancient Egyptian mummies even though they are American products, and chickens. Chickens were found all over both North and South America when the first Europeans arrived, but are not native to the Americas - someone brought them!

There are also ancient records of voyages to the Americas. Plato mentions the continents in perhaps the most ignored passage of all time, in his description of Atlantis; quote

For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
<from Timaeus, by Plato, circa ~350 BC>

I put the ignored part in bold type - for it is a description of what can only be the Americas, and they do appear to be one massive continent (they really are connected) especially to a ship sailing along the coast line.

This is only one example, if you are interested check out Aristotle's "On Marvelous Things Heard" in which he tells how the Carthaginians discovered America by accident, when ships which were planting colonies of Phoenicians along the Atlantic coast of Africa were blown across the ocean by storms; it is verified in Diodorus Siculus' "Library of History" in several books, can't recall the specifics offhand but it tells the same account in more detail. Plutarch's "Moralia XII" tells how he found a document in Carthage which describes the northern route to the Americas too, which is the identical route taken by the Norse centuries later. Aelian's "Varia Historia" also tells of the Americas. The knowledge was not apparently shared with the Romans, and we know they destroyed Carthage so lost the knowledge and thought that Iceland (Ultima Thule) was the westernmost land, though a Roman general also made an expedition (read Plutarch's Life of Sertorius and Strabo's Geography) from what they describe, it sounds like they only made it to the Caribbean Islands.

I think you are greatly under-estimating the ships of the ancients, as do most historians. Many history books still insist that the ancients always sailed in sight of shore, which is not only false but is the worst, most lengthy-tortuous way to get anywhere, and the most dangerous for that is where hidden shoals and rocks lie close to the surface for ships to crash into. The Old Testaments contains some descriptions of ancient Phoenician ships of the time of Solomon and David, which were called "Ships of Tarshish" with towering masts and impressive size. The recent discoveries of Robert Ballard of ancient ships in the Mediterranean and Black seas have proven that the ancient sailors were not staying close to shores but were crossing the open seas, using the Sun and the stars for a compass.

If you are curious, read the Periplus Erythraeum which is a set of sailing directions for the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, and dates to about the first century BC - it includes directions on sailing directly across the Indian Ocean from Africa to India and back, as the shortest and fastest routes, and what times of year to sail in order to take advantage of the prevailing winds which shifts as the seasons change. (Living in Arizona you are aware of this, some people living in northern states are not since the prevailing winds do not change direction much at higher latitudes.) I would also point out that this particular crossing route, is farther across more open ocean than the distance from Africa to South America at the closest points.

I would recommend an interesting book, if you can find it, "Did the Phoenicians Discover America" by Thomas C. Johnston; also "America BC" and "Saga America" by Dr Barry Fell, though Fell seems to have gotten very enamoured of the idea of Celts in America which in my opinion would be the result of Celts having served as mercenaries on Punic and/or Phoenician ships rather than crossing on their own but it is fascinating reading anyway. I contributed an article very much on this topic, which is online (free) at Google books,

http://books.google.com/books?id=9nNGMj ... er&f=false

I don't expect to change your mind on this, and hope that our readers are not expecting someone to find a vast set of Roman ruins in Missouri for the contact which did happen in ancient times was very far from large scale and definitely sporadic, and seems to have largely stopped when Carthage was destroyed. Others whom have "discovered" America or have some claim to this honor includes Prince Henry Sinclair, Prince Madoc (or Madog) of Wales, Saint Brendan of Ireland, Africans, Chinese, Malaysians, Arabs etc but always in each case, the discovery ended up being forgotten - such knowledge was not widely publicized as with Columbus and in many cases the discovery was accidental, just as Pedro Cabral accidently discovered Brazil while sailing around Africa and was blown across the ocean by storms - the same way the Phoenicians found it. There is much more, but I don't want to bore you any further.

Now to tie this back to Black Bart
Isaiah 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

It is curious that one gold bar was cast as a wedge, just as the very ancient Ophir gold bars were done - though we know the Spaniards cast various shapes as well, and it could be pure coincidence. I would bet that particular bar was cast by either a small mining operation or even by an assayer, who did not have any "standard" moulds.

This reminds me of something I want to ask you about in the Rockhounding forum, (sand casting silver jewelry) but will look up to see what I can find first.
Thank you for your patience, and of course, good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by roc2rol »

Geez Roy ! :shock:
It took me 2 days of thinking of how to respond to your post and a hour of typing for my sorry reply.
You blew me away across the seas in a nano second!
:lol:
So I offer you this. But I know you know already about it!
http://www.phoenicia.org/america.html

Excellent work comprade !

Ed
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by oroblanco »

Roc2roll wrote
You blew me away across the seas in a nano second!
Hoo boy that was NOT what I was shooting for - was hoping to sway your opinion, not "flood" you but I get carried away on that subject very easily. So I apologize, didn't accomplish what I was aiming for - and for the record, the vast majority of historians support the Isolation theory and that is still what it taught in our schools. The only trouble with it, the idea that the Americas were in utter isolation from 10,000 BC to the arrival of Columbus (or Leif Eriksson) is that for this to be true, there must be NO evidence of any visitors, and there is a fair amount of evidence that folks were visiting over the centuries. Not huge fleets and not on a regular basis of course.

Now to try to get back to Black Bart - do you suppose he might have returned to recover some of the loot he had stolen? Thank you in advance,
Roy
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by roc2rol »

oroblanco wrote: Now to try to get back to Black Bart - do you suppose he might have returned to recover some of the loot he had stolen? Thank you in advance,
Roy
Its an interesting question, amigo!
and the more I think on this
the more interesting it becomes.
On many levels! ;)

there a whole mystery surrounding Black Bart after leaving San Quentin.
Just two months after release he just disappears from the stage.
Did he have a secret stash and leave the country?
Was a Wells Fargo agent in cahoots with him?
Did he commit suicide?
Who knows?
But Wells Fargo was keeping a close eye on him. Why?
He was free, had did his prison time, then why hound him?
Was it because there was loot that was not recovered or accounted for?

Ed
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by oroblanco »

Roc2rol wrote
Was it because there was loot that was not recovered or accounted for?
From what info I could gather, most of the valuables and money stolen by Black Bart was never recovered nor even accounted for. This is true of a surprising percentage of the "old west" robberies, whether a stage holdup or a train robbery, most of it was stashed by the robbers and they generally failed to ever get it. Bart may well be the exception - though if he did manage to recover a stash of loot, it seems very likely that the Wells Fargo agents (or Pinkertons) would have immediately arrested him and seized the goods.

Bart pulled some 28 heists in his colorful career, I would bet that most of these resulted in his stashing some of the loot (especially heavy things like gold, as he did in his last holdup) if a guy knew where the robberies were committed, it might be fun to try to locate some of that loot.
Roy
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by roc2rol »

With Black Bart it is difficult to gather information
about the amount of his stolen goods
or how much was recovered
But the fact that the Pinkertons
(excellent reference Roy! )
shadowed him after his prison release indicates some suspicion
of loot still stashed and not recovered!

In 1858 alone Wells Fargo stages lost $27,000 in stolen goods
---mostly gold one would imagine ---

Image

There motto is:
Wells Fargo Never Forgets
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Re: Black Bart's Gold

Post by oroblanco »

Hola amigo,
You are right on amigo - Wells Fargo didn't exactly go around crowing about how much they lost and could not recover. Wells Fargo was the only stage line that BB was hitting - you know there were quite a number of different stage companies active over the west, many serving just a few towns but he seems to have preferred good old Wells Fargo. I think it is pretty much a certainty that most of the loot Black Bart got, was hidden by him and probably not too far from where the robberies took place. That would explain why Wells Fargo was so interested in him that they followed him. I would bet the amount stolen is definitely more than was publicly announced, much as modern "electronic thefts" go un-reported by banks etc because they don't want people to know how much they really have lost.

Bart pulled some 28 stage robberies in his colorful career - and "vanished" in Visalia. A little research might lead to a stash of gold..... :mrgreen:

This CA parks div site has a map showing many of the old stage routes
http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25066

I was assuming they had Pinkertons involved in the hunt for Bart, as they were hired for tracking down many outlaws but they may not have been involved. :oops:

Roy
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