Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

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Jim Hatt

Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

azmula
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Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by azmula » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:12 pm

It is good to see that there is a forum just to discuss the validity of the stone maps. It does not matter how many trips you make into the mountains if you don't know where or why you are going in it is just another sightseeing trip. Which is good too. I have researched the maps to see who might have made them and where they might lead. Do not waste your time with the Horse-Priest Stone Map because it is fake. The red Trail Maps were created in Arizpe, Sonora in the 18th century. I will support my assumptions with original factual primary sources.

azmula

Jim Hatt

Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:54 pm

Azmula,

The Horse/Priest Stone gives you more usable information than any other piece. It is authentic, and if you ever get around to presenting your "evidence" I will point out the holes in it.

It is impossible to "prove" something is fake when it is authentic. The best anyone could ever do, is present subjective opinions, or unverifiable second hand information, neither of which proves anything.

If you are so sure of your information, why do you hide unaccountable behind an alias, and refuse to put your name at the bottom of your opinions?

I do not agree with everyone's opinions, but I respect those who believe in them enough to put their name on them, and when I disagree with them, I put my name on it.

The LDM sub-forums were not intended, and and will not be maintained as a Free-For-All "Chat-Net" where ignorance is ignored, and self appointed "Authorities" on any or all subjects, are allowed to dominate the discussions.

The Topics being discussed in these forums, are of a very serious nature, and most of the people posting in them respect them as such.

More time and money has been invested in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine (LDM), and solving the Peralta Stone Maps (PSM's), than was ever invested in the search for King Tut's Tomb, and the wreck of the Atocha combined. Both were very small operations, held together by one man with a lot of faith, and very little support behind him. In the end they became two of the worlds most valuable "Found" Lost Treasures!

The LDM will be found, and the PSM's (All 7 stones) will be proven to be authentic, and solved.

That is my opinion, and my name is Jim Hatt!

If you want to challenge that opinion, put your name on the bottom of your post, and stand accountable for it, as I stand accountable for mine!


Jim Hatt

Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:16 pm

azmula wrote:
The red Trail Maps were created in Arizpe, Sonora in the 18th century. I will support my assumptions with original factual primary sources.

azmula
Well at least you got off of your "band wagon" that Tumlinson created the stone maps himself.
That is an improvement.

You are going to present "original factual primary sources" from the 18th century to support your "assumptions"?

Ahem... If you have "original factual primary sources" . What is there left to "Assume" about?

azmula wrote: I have researched the maps to see who might have made them and where they might lead.


Why is it necessary for you to use the word might in so many places with all the "original factual primary sources" of information that you have? Any chance you might have been mislead, or misunderstood something and need the "wiggle room"?

The "holes" are already appearing and your article isn't even published yet.

Please sign your reply, so I can leave it up for everyone to see, and know who is making these claims. It is an "accountability" thing that I feel is appropriate in this situation.

Jim Hatt

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Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by Rex Western » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:57 pm

Jim,

I am behind you 100% that is why I decided to use my name. I believe in my research and work, and would stand behind it, just like you do. If I am wrong, I have no problem admitting it and will stand corrected. You should make this form a stand up and be accountable one. It takes a lot to stand behind what you believe in. If you can't endorse it, then you really do not believe. If I am going to open my mouth, I am going to back up my statements with my work.

Rex Western

Jim Hatt

Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:18 pm

Thanks Rex,

Since the day I accepted the position of moderating this forum, I intended to make it into something, a large step above, the "Chat Net" kind of discussion forum.

The "Chat Netter's" have been fighting it all the way, and I have had to pull out the "Big Guns" to have it my way a time or two. Until the time comes when the Management of this Website takes those "Big Guns" away from me, I will continue to use them, as I see necessary, to achieve my original goal.

It is for people like yourself, Roger, Paul, Mike and a half dozen or more others, who I know, have walked in the footsteps of Coronado's Children, and crave for some down to earth discussions about the LDM and the PSM's, that I continue to pursue that goal.

Jim

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Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:58 am

This may not be the exact spot for these comments, but I'm going to make them here and if you need to move them Jim, that's fine by me.

While there are certainly some "wild theorists" out there (names withheld although most of you could come up with a few), I do believe that "thinking outside of the box" is a good thing when it comes to treasure hunting/searching - especially for something that has proven to be so elusive for so long.

I also believe that while there is certainly a GREAT benefit to having the opportunity to personally walk the mountains and physically experience the search, I think there's also some benefit to listening to opinions and theories from people who haven't been out there yet. I know that for me, sometimes in life I get so close to something and so focused on proving my theory that I sometimes either can't see the forst for the trees, or I let my preconceived theories cloud my judgement.

For what it's worth, 2 of the absolute best pure researchers I've had the pleasure to meet in regards to the LDM legends over the last few years are 2 fellows who either have never been in the mountains, or have only very limited experiences, but I can tell you without a doubt that these guys have uncovered a few facts that others had not been able to do and opened up a few "old timers" eyes.

I had the pleasure of helping one of them locate Erwin Ruth's daughter who many people had tried to find over the years. Although she had no "earthshattering" information leading to a gold mine, she did share a great deal of ORIGINAL documentation from her father and within all of that are quite a few new leads to track down. Who knows, she could have had the secret of where the mine truly is located and never even known it.

So anyways - off my soapbox for now. While I'd hate to see this forum digress into a bunch of crazy discussions surrounding the LDM and Superstition Mountains (things like alien technology, etc...), I hope we can all have open enough minds to at least consider many different possibilities - even when they go against much of what we may believe.

Paul

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Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:21 am

Lighthouse, you said...
Is it a TEAM effort to solve the mystery?
Like it or not, treasure hunting in general and LDM searching specifically is mostly a "solitary" venture. When I first got really interested enough in this subject to join a group of folks near the mountains a few years ago, my original thought was that they got together to share information etc... It was a great get together and I got to meet some really good people who've I've become friends with, BUT I quickly realized everyone has their secrets they may share with close friends (at least those close to them at any given time), but everyone has their own secrets they don't share with anyone.

Does that help anyone discover and locate the mine? Absolutely not, but it's just the way it is. In most respects I don't think it even has much to do with the actual potential wealth of locating it (or any other cache). It's more a matter of proving to yourself and to others that YOU ALONE were able to finally solve the mystery and that your theories and years of research were the right ones all along.

Call it ego if you will I suppose, but I don't consider myself to be egotistical at all, but I have some secrets of my own from just the short trips I've taken out there.

I think a big part of forums like these are to just discuss the history surrounding the legends, exchange theories and hope beyond hope that someone drops some speck of information that leads to an "aha" moment that meshes with years of research to provide that last clue to solving the puzzle.

Paul

Jim Hatt

Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by Jim Hatt » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:24 am

cubfan64 wrote:
I think there's also some benefit to listening to opinions and theories from people who haven't been out there yet.

Paul
Hi Paul,

I believe that if you look back through the topics here, you will see that I have said the same thing more than once.

Theories are welcome from everyone, as long as they are presented as theories and/or opinions not as facts, and the theorists do not attempt to dominate every discussion, making it difficult for people who are trying to learn, to keep track of the difference between what is theory, and what is fact.

The more times someone reads something, the more likely they are to accept it as factual.

I am familiar with some of the research that has been done, and some of the discoveries that have been made concerning the life and death of Adolph Ruth. Those things are very interesting, and the researchers should be acknowledged for their efforts from a historical point of view. But... When it comes down to trying to find the LDM, It isn't going to tell you where to look or where to dig.

For someone who is investing his resources into searching for the LDM, it is not going to produce any useful information towards that goal, to know who killed Adolph Ruth.

One of my primary goals for these forums at DUSA, is to sort out what may, or may not be useful information, for anyone that is actively searching for the LDM or trying to solve where the PSM's lead to.

Like knowing who killed Ruth or the history of the man. Knowing who made the stone maps, where and when they were made, is not going to tell you where to look or dig.

The most that can be expected from that kind of information is background knowledge that would help an individual decide if they believe the LDM actually exists, and if the PSM's are authentic.

For someone that has already formed their own opinions, and concluded that both are out there to search for, and are out there searching for them. There is nothing to be gained by debating those questions.

I am trying to attract the people to these forums, that have worked their way past the question of whether or not, the search is worth the effort, and are committed to finding whatever they have concluded may be out there.

Jim



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Re: Debating the Peralta Stone Maps with Mike Chabak

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:39 am

Hi Jim,

I do understand where you're coming from, and I hope my post didn't come off as too snotty or anything because it wasn't meant that way. I agree with you in regards to some of the discussion topics because some go back to the whole idea of whether Waltz had a mine or whether any of the legends we've heard have any basis in actual fact or not - and like you said, many of us (myself included) have already formed beliefs on some of those things.

My example about the fellow who I did a little work with to help locate Erwin Ruth's daughter and how he has very limited physical contact with the Superstition Mountains is still valid in my opinion. You see, despite our interest in locating her for historical reasons, we held out a strong hope that perhaps she had the supposed copy of the "Peralta book" which Gene Reynolds claimed to have seen in person at one time. The hope was that perhaps the information contained within it could help lead to the mine itself. In addition, there were quite a number of original letters shared between Erwin and folks like John Reed and others that had not been seen that we hoped might contain a new clue or two that would again help lead to solving the mystery.

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