Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

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Mountain Hiker
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Mountain Hiker »

Jim,

Could you possibly e-mail me privately and give me your phone number and a time so I can call you or you could call me?

What ever works for you.


Mountain Hiker
Billy
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

Morning Billy,

My hearing is just about shot, (Tinnitus) and I rarely talk on the telephone any more. My phone conversations usually consist of the better half telling me who is on the phone and what they want. Then she relays my reply to them.

If you want to send me an email. My email address, and a few hints for making sure your email does not go to my JUNK or Spam folder, is posted at:
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1381

Jim
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by somehiker »

Jim Hatt wrote:Morning Billy,

My hearing is just about shot, (Tinnitus) and I rarely talk on the telephone any more. My phone conversations usually consist of the better half telling me who is on the phone and what they want. Then she relays my reply to them.

If you want to send me an email. My email address, and a few hints for making sure your email does not go to my JUNK or Spam folder, is posted at:
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1381

Jim
Ah,firearms and dynamite.
Earplugs...nah. :lol:
Would take all the fun away.

Regards:SH.
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javaone
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by javaone »

Are the “Stones” a hoax? :lol:

Some say that there is evidence showing markings indicative of modern tools. I’m not so sure about that… What is modern? :?:

Hardened iron carving tools have been used for centuries including the “drill press”. :arrow:
Wikipedia:
The development of iron made possible stone carving tools, such as chisels, drills and saws made from steel, that were capable of being hardened and tempered to a state hard enough to cut stone without deforming, while not being so brittle as to shatter. Carving tools have changed little since then.

Thoughts?

Jerry
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

javaone wrote:Are the “Stones” a hoax? :lol:

Some say that there is evidence showing markings indicative of modern tools.

Jerry
I've heard that before Jerry. Isn't it interesting that those same people, are never able to present any evidence supporting that conclusion, when questioned about it?

:lol:

I'm with you Jerry!
It is pretty easy to toss an idea like that out on the table.
But... It is not so easy to convince others that it has merit.

Best,

Jim
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gollum
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Last weekend, I had a chance to look at the Stone Maps up close and use a digital microscope on them.

None of them looked carved at all. If I had to guess how they were made, I would say that a pattern was drawn on them, and the pattern was scratched into the surface. Scratching the same lines over and over to make them larger and deeper. The ONLY stone that looked chiseled was the Cross Side of the Upper Map Stone. That cross has the unmistakable sharp edges that would be present if chiseled. Everything else was smooth, and you can see places where whatever they were using to scratch the pattern jumped the groove and marked outside it.

Best-Mike
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Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

Great photo Mike!

I agree with your theory about how the maps were made. The variations in the width and depth of the lines is a strong indication that they were made exactly as you suggested. (To me anyway).

Best,

Jim
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Mrs.Oroblanco
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco »

Desert Archaeology was one of the places/institutions that was asked to look at the Peralta Stones. And, they did, in fact, publish a couple of short papers on it, by a couple of different folks in DA.

The people involved were Henry D. Wallace, Jenny Adams, Homer Theil, and Beth Mitska - done for the museum in 2004.

Here are there writings: (which the museum has)

Henry Wallace:

We are finished with the analysis of the stones (see below for comments
from analysts that we sent to Anne). A photographer from Arizona Highways
may be calling you to get a photo with you and the stones. He was going to
get photos and then they are ready to be picked up.

Cheers,
Henry Wallace
Desert Archaeology



Jenny Adams:

In my opinion, they are very nicely done and very interesting pieces.

Having said that - in my opinion - most of the manufacturing was done
with modern (meaning electrical) tools. The pair of dark stones were
mechanically sanded and then drilled or dremmeled to make the symbols. I
didn't see any metal filings to help with that interpretation, but in
many places, there is a start dimple where the drill first touched the
stone. The large cross on one side was chiseled rather than drilled. I
could go on in more detail about which symbols were made with different
tools and with different techniques but I doubt that level of detail is
necessary at this point.
There is no evidence that these stones were ever buried and then dug up
or that they sat out in the elements for any great length of time. The
stone material is very soft and there would be lots of random abrasions
across the sanded surfaces if they had been buried. If they sat out in
the open there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols, and
discoloration of the stone material - just look at old headstones in any
cemetery.

Homer Theil

HI Henry,

My comments on the Peralta Stones:

1). Witch imagery- a quick review of witch pictures on the internet reveals
that prior to 1900 witches were not depicted with the pointed hat that
appears on the stone next to one of the 1847 dates. The stone image
resembles strongly witch imagery from the 1910s to 1940s.

2). The horse image is also not typical of horse imagery of the 1840s.
As an
example see:

3). The lettering is completely wrong for Spanish documents of the time
period.

Summary- it is a fake.

Homer Theil, Historical Archaeologist, Desert Archaeology, Inc.

There are also photos from this gentleman, that he included to show his point on the witch, the horse and the lettering.
I can include that separately, if one wants to see - I would have to upload them to photobucket, though.

Beth Mitska:

Henry-

I looked at the Peralta Stones, and they are not made with rocks
consistent with the Florence area. The big stone with the horse on it
appears to be Coconino Sandstone or a related sandstone--this would be
available on the Mogollon Rim and in parts of northern Arizona. The
other two sandstones are very soft, very fine iron-rich micaceous
arkosic sandstones (possibly graywacke) such as those found in units on
the Mogollon Rim or in northern Arizona. The "heart" stone is an
iron-rich mudstone or shale that is consistent with units in northern
Arizona. I am not sure if it would be available on the Mogollon Rim.

I concur with Jenny Adams' finding that the stones do not show evidence
of being buried for any length of time. There is no weathering or even
minor surface alteration consistent with burial. The map surfaces of
the two conjoining "map" stones are especially fresh.

Beth

*******************************************

Elizabeth Miksa, Ph.D. Ph. 520/881-2244
Research Geologist Fax 520/881-0325
Desert Archaeology, Inc
3975 N. Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, AZ 85716



These documents are at the museum, and can be seen.

Beth (Mrs.O)
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alan m
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by alan m »

Hello
It may interst you to know that it is impossible to tell if a machine marking was, or was not drivin by an electric motor!
Please, I can see how it could be determined that the tablets were carved using a machine and that is the position that Charles Polzer took.
But if you recall that many of the stones found in association with the pyramids appear as if they too were made by machine, over 5000 years ago.
The Egyptians had machines for cutting granite, they were water drivin.
The one major barrier to achieving any understanding of the people who came before us is to consider that we are so much more technologically advanced than they were.
I would like to see someone today, with no prior knowledge figure out how to make a stone tool.

Regards
Alan
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by somehiker »

The people responsible for the stone maps had the perfect "machine" with which to mill the surface of the stones.It was also known as an arrastra.
Looks like lots of stone map material in this photo.
http://www.grovelandmuseum.org/Arrastra-lge.jpg

Regards:Somehiker
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