Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

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arctodus111
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by arctodus111 »

Hi all,

I can provide some interesting information, from my own perspective, concerning the authenticity of the stone maps. You can take it at will, with a grain of salt, or however else you choose!

First, I am a professional archaeologist with over 20 years of experience dealing with ancient things. Therefore-I am really good at finding stuff, and noticing the tell tale signs of antiquity. Something that has been buried in the ground has very definite characteristics that cannot be reproduced through any means...fraudsters can get close, but I've never seen a fake that cannot be ruled a fake by a professional.

Given this, it is my humble opinion that the Horse stone is absolutely genuine, and exhibits characteristics of being buried in the ground for a substantial period of time. The other stones also exhibit some signs, but much less so than the Horse stone. This could be due to the fact that they were sheltered by it, and made of different materials. I'm not sure if it is known what order the stones were uncovered in. I can say, I'd love to get those stones into an archaeology lab and do some further work on them.

Second, the writing on the stones is absolutely authentic Campesino, written by someone with a minimal amount of formal education in spelling and grammer. I don't believe that the misspellings were intentional, or clues to be followed. Let me explain. I spend A LOT of time working in Mexico, and therefore interact a lot with the people in the countryside-the Campesinos. I have actually seen them write Coazon, meaning Corazon, due to phonetically spelling out what they hear-the R is often dropped in various dialects depending upon the region. The same is true for Cobollo.

So take it as you will. That being said, I don't know where the darn things lead...but I'd sure like to find out just as much as everyone else!

Al
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by babymick1 »

arctodus111 wrote:Hi all,



Second, the writing on the stones is absolutely authentic Campesino, written by someone with a minimal amount of formal education in spelling and grammer.

Al

Yes AL

I feel the same, and all the maps are authentic, but not made all at the same time. If the jesiuts packed up thier goods from different locations and arrived at different times, lets say one pre-arranged location to hide thier vestments, so when the smoke clears they could retrieve it all from on general location. Makes alot of since to me.

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by coazon de oro »

Arctodus111,

Welcome to DUSA Al, It sure is nice to have a professional Archaeologist state his opinion on the authenticity of the PSM's.

It is also my belief that the PSM's are the work of a "Campesino". I have stated before that they were made either by a Peralta, or one of their workers.

The PSM's consist of four stones, there are no others connected to them. The Priest stone shows this, the 1, indicates this stone, the 2,and 3 are the map stones, and the 4th is the heart stone.

The stone crosses and Latin heart came later, they were copycatted after the PSM's. Those in my opinion are fakes, the grammar tells me they are Gringo made. A common Mexican may make spelling errors, but will get the grammar right. Who made the stone crosses and the Latin heart? The man that destroyed the Latin heart seems to be the most likely candidate.

The PSM's do have spelling errors, but the grammar is correct. Even el mapa, which is an exception to the rule of gender is correct.

Time, fabrications, and opinions taken as facts, have clouded the way the PSM's were found. I see no other way than the following:

The Priest/Horse stone is buried on its edge with part of the top protruding out of the ground. the others are underneath in the order indicated on the first stone.

Travis T. stumbled on the Priest/Horse stone, and was intrigued by the name Miguel etched on the top of the edge of the stone, and digs it out. He took it home and later understood he was to look for more stones underneath. Nothing tells the finder to look though a hole in a cactus, that part is fabricated.

A year later Travis is able to go back and look for the other stones. This is why the picture of the stones on the car bumper do not include the Priest/Horse stone, because it was left at home.

Another thing the photo shows, is that the heart stone was already glued. I also fail to see anything Jesuit about them.

Homar P. Olivarez
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by babymick1 »

Homar

The stone maps, Scream, Jesuits, its all in the eye of the seeker. Its like AZ kicking out all the mexicans. They talk english, Most believe in the american dream, buy cars, houses, goods and there children go to school. Now I see Americans' most don't. Now the maps were made by different people not the same person did all the maps that would lead me to believe they were done by a order, and the stone crosses are not copy cats thier a map of there own to a different mineing site same with the latin heart. Its like city sidewalks done buy different company,s under one standard you can't tell them apart.

Best to ya

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by coazon de oro »

Babymick1,

It sure is amazing how we all see things different. I always look forward to hearing about different theories or conclusions concerning the PSM's.

I know that they scream Jesuit to many, yet I can't even hear a whisper. I share my opinions without expecting a paradigm shift, knowing that we all live in a different world.

It is their sense of nostalgia that draws a treasure hunter into the Superstitions, that makes them authentic.

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Coazon,

First, according to the story "as told by Travis T", he tripped over a stone sticking up from the ground. When he looked at it, he noticed it was oddly shaped. When he pulled it out of the ground and brushed it off, he noticed the word "DON" carved into it.

He did not find the H/P Stone first. He found the "DON" Stone first.

From all that we have right now, the H/P Stone looks to have been carved by Travis T. As our new resident Archaeologist states, the stone does exhibit the characteristics of having been buried. This could be because Travis dug up the stone before carving it.

I don't know Arctodus111, so I can't say whether or not you have had the chance to look at the stones up close or not, but I have. I have put the stones under a digital microscope to get a close look at the grooves. I have also been allowed to photograph them under controlled lighting (including white, LED White, and black lights).

Here are the facts; as told in the stories, the grooves and symbols were cleaned out several times. I presume with nails, knife blades, wire brushes, etc. no care was ever given to preserving microscopic evidence of what was used to carve them. That is lost forever.

Contrary to the article by the professionals at DAI, there is NO WAY to positively say whether the stones were carved by hand or using electric tools (circa 1948-49).

We have family members telling some investigators (and I completely trust their word) that Travis carved the maps (although they only witnessed him carving the H/P Stone). Whereas I have the word of Travis' Daughter Janie Tumlinson that her dad was in no way ever involved in any hoax or swindle involving the stone maps.

It is also possible that what the family members witnessed was Travis carving extra symbols and characters on the maps. We have evidence of this via the "Peck Letters" where one of Travis good friends that was shown the stones by Travis stated that Travis told him he had carved the six zeros on the heart insert to "throw off" anybody that might steal the stones from him.

On the down side, we also have several carvings known to have been carved by Travis at his old place of residence in Texas (including a nice Spanish Galleon and a Treasure Chest).

In one of Azmula's Emails from a Tumlinson Family Member, they state that Travis never went searching in the Supers. That is patently untrue based on people in Apache Junction that knew Travis.

So, even with all the new evidence that has been uncovered by myself, Azmula, Garry, and Larry in the last few years, we are still at the same spot we were twenty years ago: If you are a stone maps protagonist, then you can make a good case for their authenticity. If you are a stone maps antagonist, then you can make just as good a case for their being modern carving (no motives guessed at).

As for myself, I still hold on to some belief that some of the stones are authentic. I base this belief on the actions of Travis Tumlinson. Not on what he, or anybody else has said. What did Travis do with the stone maps while he had them in his possession?

1. He mostly kept their existence a secret from 1949 until his death in 1961.

2. He ad his friend would sit for hours trying to figure out the maps, and Travis would stick his finger in the big hole on the lower map stone and say "If I could find where this is, I'd be a millionaire!"

3. There is no evidence to show that he ever tried to sell them, sell a magazine article about them, get on the news or TV with them. In the 1950s, it would have been TOTALLY EASY to get national interest in the stones if he had wanted to. Just look at Clarence Mitchell. One call to LIFE Magazine and he has a several page article with pictures.

No, sorry detractors, Travis' actions were not those of someone that had carved all the stones for himself. I believe that one of the stones may be a modern creation, and I am almost certain that Travis added some of his own characters and symbols to the originals to "throw off" anybody that saw or "obtained" them without his permission. Pretty smart actually.

I believe they were carved not by some chunty pendejo, but by a German Jesuit. German Jesuits were the ones most skilled in the mining arts. An Italian, Spanish, or Mexican Jesuit would have known how to spell what he was carving. Whomever carved those words learned Spanish Phonetically not gramatically. They learned by hearing the words spoken. Not by reading them in a book "COAZON" "CABOLLO"

The shapes of the upper and lower map stones are perfect for being set in the floor of a mission. Maybe Travis' Grandfather did illegally get the stones from someone that had taken them from the floor at the Jesuit Mission at Arizpe, Mex. I can't think of a better place for a Jesuit to hide them!

Let's conjecture here for a moment:

You are a Jesuit Father in 1765-1766. You know that every Priest of your Order has been arrested searched and kicked out of every place on Earth controlled by first the Portuguese (in 1759) and then by the French (in 1764). You know that King Charles III has sent a special envoy to investigate all the actions of the Jesuit Order in Spain's Colonies in the New World. This means that it is only a matter of time before every Jesuit in every land controlled by Spain will be arrested and marched to some port for shipment to Europe. As was the case with both the Portuguese and French round ups, the Jesuit Fathers were only allowed to keep the clothes they were wearing, their Breviaries, and a copy of Thomas Aquinas' "An Imitation of Christ."

Let's say that you have already hidden all the wealth of the Jesuits. We won't squabble as to its' size or content. What are you going to do with the map you made to show the location of the treasure? Every Father would be stripped and thoroughly searched by the Spanish looking for exactly that (treasure maps). The Spanish KNEW the Jesuits had a lot of wealth.

You have no idea how many years it would be until you (or someone else from your Order) would be able to get back here and recover the Church's Wealth. It could be a hundred years (it turned out to be forty-seven (47) years before the Jesuits were reinstated as an Order of the Catholic Church. Where could you hide your map?

1. With some trusted by the Order? No, maybe THAT person could be trusted, but if it took a hundred years to get back, maybe their son or grandson might get greedy and want it for himself.

2. In a secret compartment in a desk or piece of furniture? No, what if a fire destroyed the place (and hence the map).

3. In a box buried? No, this is the best second choice, but the Spanish would look for just such a thing when they came. Secret hiding places. Buried boxes, etc.

4. Bury that box in a cave somewhere? No, you have to have instructions to get to the cave. Even there, the box/map would be subject to the elements (and animals).

This is what you need: A way to make sure the map could not be harmed by floods, fires, rats, bat shit, etc. The map had to be in a place easy to find for future Jesuits, but not easily found by the Spanish Soldiers that would be looking everywhere for Jesuit Treasure.

The Answer:

Put the maps on stones. That would make them safe from the elements and animals. To make them easy for future Jesuits to find, the easy answer is to place them somewhere in a Jesuit Mission. There were accurate records of the locations of every Mission. Because they were places of worship, the Spanish weren't likely to tear them up looking for hidden tunnels and the like. An outlying nondescript Mission would be much better than a grand church, rectory, or colegio. Those places would be thoroughly searched as they were the most likely hiding places for wealth. Put the maps on regular stones and set them in this mission's floor (say under the bed of the Father). That way, they weren't likely to get walked on much and get broken and need replacing. Future Jesuits would find the stones, and hopefully know how to interpret them.

Back to the future now:

Say Travis's Grandfather has these stones. Travis sees them as a child and gets the big eyed treasure bug (as we all did). Every time he visits Grandpa's House, he makes him pull out the stones so he can see them and wonder about their meaning and what they lead to. Maybe seeing these stones as a kid kick-started Travis' stone carving. Maybe the "galleon", the "treasure chest", and the "chimney" all came after Travis saw the stone maps at his grandpa's house.

All this is PURE conjecture mind you, but it makes a very plausible (and entertaining) story, doesn't it?

Best - Mike
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Mike,

[2. He ad his friend would sit for hours trying to figure out the maps, and Travis would stick his finger in the big hole on the lower map stone and say "If I could find where this is, I'd be a millionaire!"]

Image

Using my solution to the Stone Maps, that hole ends up being very close to Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars.......Coincidence?

It seems to me, that there is very little (no?) empirical, or direct evidence for any of the story attributed to Travis Tumlinson. That would include any searching he may have done in the Superstitions.

On the other hand, you are correct in that "it makes a very plausible (and entertaining) story".

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Joe,

I thought Charlie Miller and one other person (who I can't remember right now) who knew Travis T. pretty well, said that he came to the Supers regularly to try and solve the stone maps?

I was under the impression that the Harry LaFrance (France) Cave of Gold Bars was just on the North side of Weaver's Needle (Turtle Pass somewhere?), but who knows how accurate the France's description of how he found the cave was? Could be right there (pretty close).

On the other hand, other stories match that spot (assuming the split mountain is Weaver's Needle):

1. Ed Piper who said that as a child an Indian Chief told him that a great treasure was hidden in a cave on the slopes of Weaver's Needle.

2. Apache Stories of their entrance to the surface of the world through a cave on the Needle.

3. Piper's claiming that he left the Needle every year at the same time because the Apache had some sacred ritual in the area at which he was not welcomed (same cave maybe?).

4. Hiker found by Ed Piper and Robert Crandall. The hiker had fallen into a large hole near the Needle. When he woke up, he saw a priest standing over him. It was a golden statue. With his leg broken, he expended all his energy climbing back out and crawled to where Piper and Crandall found him. He told them some of the story then passed out. They took him to a hospital in Florence where he died without regaining consciousness, taking the location of the cave with him.

5. An old timer Jim Hatt knew (I can't remember his name right now). He was an Indian (supposedly born on the slopes of Weaver's Needle), and a relative told him that if he ever wanted to find a big treasure, he should go to the Superstition Mountains and find the Needle. The treasure is in a cave on that peak.

6. And lest we not forget the venerable Father Rojas (Roxas) and his silver bell. Hidden from the Spanish and never recovered.

Before I got some of the back stories on the aforementioned tales, I thought that they were tales made up by Dutch Hunters to keep people far away from where they thought the DLM was (Tortilla Mt. Peter's Mesa, areas). Now, I think there may be something to the stories of treasures near the needle. Can't imagine why after all the full time searchers it has never been found, buuuuuuuuuuut...........................

QUIEN SABE?

Mike
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by coazon de oro »

Gollum,

I consider you the most knowledgeable when it comes to the PSM's, and refer inquiring minds to your website now and then. I don't know how your own perspective, which is based on logic, reason, and actions, not to mention proof, could be swayed by opinions, assumptions, and unreliable sources.

Listen to yourself here, he mostly kept their existence a secret from 1949 until his death in 1961.

In order to keep a secret, sometimes one has to bend the truth. I believe that when Travis T. was told that the stones could be a treasure map, he started to bend the truth. You may recall reading that he became more protective of them at that point.

It is the H/P stone that tells one to look for the other stones. The Don stone could not help Travis in finding the rest of the stones. I see no other way. It was the H/P stone that his relatives remember seeing him scraping, and assumed he had made it. It was this stone that he had kept out in the open because at that time, and without the other stones, he had no idea it could be part of a treasure map.

It was a year later that he went back understanding from the H/P stone that there could be more, when he found the others. That's why the H/P stone is not in the photo.

The mission story lacks solid evidence in my opinion. There is no floor wear on any. How can you disregard the photo of the stones on the car bumper, and the eye witness of the stones having roots growing in the etchings?

I appreciate the efforts of Azmula, and Garry, but their sources are not very reliable as you proved yourself.

One coincidence which is a young boy carving on stone, is not enough to raise suspicion of his finding. I see it more as the law of attraction.

I never considered a chunty pendejo to be that talented :lol: , but still consider it to be the work of a Peralta.

Now I can't help but imaging Don Jose with his pointy boots. :lol:

Homar P. Olivarez
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Mike,

If you follow Harry's story......to the letter, you will end up in Little Boulder Canyon. If you stretch it, you will end up in West Boulder. Anything else is reading more into his story than is there, or wishful thinking and trying to put the cave where you want it to be.

I knew many of the men who searched with Harry. They all believed he ended up in West Boulder. Because of the Stone Maps, I think that is possible. They also searched Old West Boulder and many of the side canyons.

There is little doubt, in my mind, that the triangle slash is Weaver's Needle. That has more to do with the terrain and the markings around that symbol than anything else.

We once spent some time with a man and his wife, who were camped at Piper Spring. The man told us he had been one of Pipers team, back in the day. He said they had observed a row of lights (torches?) going up the north side of the Needle at night.....a number of different times.

They would reach a point on the side of the mountain and one by one the lights would go out, as if they entered a cave. They looked, but could never find the opening. Now the two of them were in the mountains doing research for a book they were writing. No I don't recall his name.

He also told me where the Indians had found Piper the time he decided to hide and see what they were up to.

Here's what I remember about them: She was a classy looking woman, probably late forties or so, wore a cossack-looking fur hat. Both rolled their cigarettes with one hand. They had a large coffee pot in which they boiled water and threw in extra coffee grounds and water as we consumed the contents. Set it off on a big flat rock near the fire to let the grounds settle.

The next day, we climbed the sides of the Needle.

Told, pretty much, the same story here: Native American history within the Superstitions....

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:39 pm

I believe I may have sent you a copy of our interview with Tracy Hawkins. Don't believe you can get a more complete account of what Harry told them.

Take care,

Joe
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