Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

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Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

I understand Mike... One of the problems is that there is so much well documented "dis-information" about the stone maps, and so little well documented "true" information.

Like you, I accept them as authentic. Because of that. I overlook the missing pieces of the puzzle, or the ones that don't seem to fit, and concentrate on understanding the information presented on them. I am fortunate that the Superstition Mountains are right at my doorstep. If they weren't, I would probably be more focused on the history like you and so many others are. For me, it's like... Who Killed Ruth? I've never spent much time researching that question. What I want to know, and spend my time on, is where does the "Ruth Map" lead to?

Jim
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Hey Jim,

Okay. I finally got a couple of things straightened out about the end of MOEL Inc and the Stone Maps. A few days ago, I shot an email out to Ray and Cynthia Grant at the AM&M Museum asking some specific questions of the Stone Maps. I just a reply today from Ray.

Here is Ray's response (his answers are mixed in with my email):
.
Mike,

I will answer your questions as best that I am able. No one is alive that was part of the group when the stones were donated. I have only been associated with the Foundation for the past 20 years.

Ray Grant
On Apr 16, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Mike McChesney wrote:

Dear Mr & Mrs Grant,

Jan at AM&MM gave me your email so I can hopefully get a couple of things straight regarding the Stone Maps. Nothing to do with their authenticity. Most of my interest in them is from 1949 until present.

There are so many different versions of this part of their history, I have just been trying to get things straight.

1. What was the date the Stone Maps were donated by C.O. Mitchell (one source has the date at 1965 or so, but most have 1968 as the year of donation)?

We have a single sheet of paper that says the stones were donated in 1969 by a Boyd Cochrane for Moel Inc. I would have to search for that paper to get you a copy. I believe it had Cochrane's address.

2. Did C.O. Mitchell personally donate them (did he have physical possession)? I ask this question because one version has Mitchell donating them, but was under duress by the AZ State Atty Gen Office, and the FBI had actual possession. It was the FBI that physically gave the Stone Maps to the Foundation/Museum.
I have never seen any document with C.O. Mitchell's name or FBI. only information as above. The story, not written, was that the court ordered the company that was using the stones (Moel?) to raise money to donate them to a non-profit organization and that was how we got them.

3. Has the Mining and Minerals Museum had more than one set of copies made (or do you know of any more copies being made from those molds)? I ask because the best version I have found has the company that AM&MM contracted to make their set, kept producing several copies from those molds, then sold those molds to an artist in Laguna Niguel, Ca. This artist then made several sets and many one half sized sets. Have you heard this? If so, do you know the name of the artist (I don't live far from Laguna Niguel).

I had a letter in February 2006 from *********************** Mission Viejo, CA 92691, Phone *** *** ****. He stated that he had the contract to make the copies of the stones and had read of somebody else offering copies and was concerned. I have no idea how many copies were made, we do not have any. I have not seen any for sale.



Any assistance you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Mike McChesney
I omitted a couple of things as I am still checking into them, but when everything is hashed out, I will post them as well.

Best-Mike
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

So.............

It appears that MOEL was enjoined from selling stock by the SEC first temporarily, then permanently in 1964. That did not seem to stop MOEL from using the Stone Maps as lures to generate corporate income. Later, I guess about 1968, the states of Nevada and Arizona both brought charges against MOEL for the same thing.

In a plea bargain, MOEL donated the Stone Maps to a non-profit organization (AL Flagg, AM&MM) in 1969. I haven't been able to find out for certain, but I would guess that Boyd Cochrane was the Attorney for MOEL Inc.

Best-Mike
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

That fits Bob Corbin's time-line a lot better doesn't it Mike?

re: "I guess about 1968, the states of Nevada and Arizona both brought charges against MOEL for the same thing".

That doesn't sound right Mike. Bob told me the later dispute that ended with the stones being confiscated, was a personal dispute between Mitchel, and one (or more) of his investors over ownership of the stones.

As the story goes... Someone had invested a lot of money into Mitchel's search for whatever the stones led to. When Mitchel failed to find it, they demanded that he give them the stones in return for their investment that did not pay off. Now... It is possible that that spiraled off into some kind of SEC violation, but Bob never mentioned it to me if it did.

The leverage the State used to against Mitchel to get the matter settled out of court, was the idea that the stones fell under the protection of the Antiquities Act. (Based on the FBI's "opinion" that they were at least 100 years old at that time) Like I said before... I don't think the State could have used an "opinion" no matter who it came from to win their case. They would have needed some "solid evidence" for the age of the carvings on the stones. I can understand how Mitchel might have folded under the pressure tho. It takes a lot of money (in Attorney Fees) to fight something like that.

Jim
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Okay.........

Here we go for another change in what we know. This thanks to Aurum, who has done more in depth study of the Stone Maps than just about anybody I know of (especially their modern history).

Something in the letter from Ray Grant at AM&MM struck a chord in my memory banks. I started going through all my old emails trying to find that familiar thing. Turns out it was a name. Boyd Cochrane.

Sometime in 1965-1966, Boyd and Ruth Cochrane got signed on as officers of MOEL Inc.
The reason the FBI never became involved in any MOEL Securities and Exchange litigation is because the Stone Maps were the personal property of Clarence Mitchell and never belonged to the MOEL Corporation.

The MOEL Co. Articles of Incorporation and Stock Prespectus never mention the Stone Maps. Not once in any MOEL paperwork, anywhere, are the Stone Maps ever even so much as mentioned.
I believe the wild stories of the Stone Map struggles and fights over who owned them came from an internal problem within MOEL itself, beginning sometime in 1965-1966. Boyd and Ruth Cochrane got themselves voted in as officers of MOEL and wanted the Stone Maps to be a part of the Company. Mitchell emphatically said no and the Cochrane’s tried some legal maneuvers to get the Stone Maps away from Mitchell but were unsuccessful as they never had any legal claim on them in the beginning. Mitchell at this time was a geologist for the Company, the only person involved with MOEL who was on the payroll. The Cochrane’s failed but not before they caused MOEL and the Mitchell’s a lot of trouble and grief. It was the actions of the Cochrane’s that were behind all the wild stories and speculation about MOEL.
So, Jim, seems like Bob was correct in what he told you. I guess the Cochranes had tried to legally get the Stone Maps from Mitchell. It also looks like The Cochranes had possession of the Stone Maps when they were all ordered to donate them to a non-profit. Maybe as part of the suit against Mitchell, the Court had the FBI come in and have the stones examined to see if they were at least antiques.

Aurum has verified his information with the surviving two members of MOEL Inc. While I am always looking for at least two sources of a fact to form an opinion, this trail seems a bit firmer than most.

Best-Mike
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

It's fitting like a glove Mike. I never doubted Bob's story for a moment. Granted, he did not remember the name of all the people involved or the exact dates, but what he did remember he was sure of.

Now the real kicker! Bob never developed an interest in the stone maps after hearing the FBI's opinion of them. He did the math (Late 1960's) and backed up 100 years which put him right in the middle of the James Addison Reavis Land Grant Fraud case. It seemed obvious to him that there must be a connection there, and he never gave them any thought after that.

I haven't talked to him since Helen's funeral (and that was no place to be bringing it up) so I'm don't know if he still "Blows them off" as part of that fraud or not.

It is on the top of my list of things to ask him about next time I see him.

Jim
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum »

Seems like Bob and I think alike.

I do take into account the "at least" part though. The only problem I have with the Reavis Land Grant Fraud is that if they were made for that purpose, then the maker did a poor job of making something that would substantiate a Peralta Land Grant. They don't say Peralta anywhere on them. There is "DON" and there is a "MIGUEL", but how many Dons and Miguels are there in Mexico? I have thought about it many times, and I can't imagine how they could have been used for the A-R Case. I do have to admit the possibility though. Not probable, but possible.

Here is the "possible":

All the stones were found in the same vicinity. If the stones had been made for the A-R Fraud, and they were arrested, if the stonecutter hadn't given them to Reavis, then he may have gotten scared and dumped them all.

Like I said; possible but not probable.

I still say the most likely reason for all the stones to have been dumped in the same vicinity is because whatever they led the way to was recovered, and the finder had no further need for them.

That is my most likely hypothesis if Tumlinson found them near Queen Creek like he said. If Aurum is correct, and they came from the Arizpe Mission, THAT puts them in a whole new light.

I don't know if Aurum follows this forum, but if so, I have a question that bugs me about your theory (if he doesn't respond, I'll just email him):

If the stones didn't apply to the Supers but to Arizpe, why did Tumlinson and his brother keep coming back to the Supers? Why didn't they go to Mexico? After all, if they knew where the maps came from, and where they applied to, common sense says that they would have gone to the place where the treasure was.

Best-Mike
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

Mike,

When Bob told me about his suspicion about the maps being part of the Reavis Fraud (the A-R Case for non conformists :lol: ). I have to admit that it backed me up a few steps. I had to reconsider everything I had come to believe about them. In fact I was was not completely sold on their authenticity, until Al Reser introduced me to the Latin Heart and the story about Charlie Miller finding it. More details at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1459
gollum wrote: If Aurum is correct, and they came from the Arizpe Mission, THAT puts them in a whole new light.
When did Aurum adopt that theory? I've never heard anyone promote it but Azmula. There is too much evidence that the Latin Heart and Stone Crosses are authentic, and part of the stone maps, for that story to hold up. (Why weren't they found in the Arizpe Mission too?)
gollum wrote:I still say the most likely reason for all the stones to have been dumped in the same vicinity is because whatever they led the way to was recovered, and the finder had no further need for them.
But Mike... They were not all found in the same place. The Latin Heart was found an "unknown" (to me anyway) distance north of where the maps were found, (but in the same general area) and the Stone Crosses were found Miles north of that same area. Additionally... If they apply to mines (as most people believe). How could someone haul the mines away?
gollum wrote:I don't know if Aurum follows this forum, but if so, I have a question that bugs me about your theory (if he doesn't respond, I'll just email him):
Which theory are you talking about? I have several. Perhaps "I" might be able to answer your question about "MY" Theory? Aurum is not accountable for my theories, nor I for his. :lol:

Jim

Note re: Aurum and Azmula. If we are going to use other people for "Historical" references. Let's put real names to them in the future. Anonymous handles are not credible sources (A lot of readers here have no idea who Aurum and Azmula are).

All this "Arizpe Mission" stuff has been circulating for years with nobody's name on it, except for Jack and Bernice McGee, who first presented the story in their article in Frontier Times in 1973. See complete story in this forum at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1301

A lot of what we know about the stone maps today, was not known in 1973 when the McGees wrote that story.

Anyone who is challenging the written history should at least put his name at the bottom of his challenge, and stand accountable for it.

If Azmula or Aurum wish to come on here and make their point, they are welcome to do so, but they will be expected to put their real names at the bottom, and stand accountable for the sources of their information.

Short of that... the anonymous aliases of Azmula or Aurum are not considered to be credible sources in this forum.

THE GAMES STOP HERE...
NO ACCOUNTABILITY, NO CREDIBILITY!


If anyone posts a challenge to the written history of any legend or story, without identifying their sources, and putting their name on it. It's just hearsay, and it's just adding to the confusion. I will dump it.
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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by wmcneely »

Real names of real people! Yes that helps verify or helps keep us from wasting time chasing phantoms.

Warren
Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt »

Thank You Warren!

Like a lot of other people, I am sick of all the mis-information that I have seen spread around, just during the years that I have been researching the stone maps. It all comes from the shadows with NOBODY standing accountable for it. When someone wants B.S. spread around, they whisper it to one person, in the hopes that they spread it to another.

ie: "Well I heard that Aurum said... that Azmula said that... That Mitchel said... that Tumlinson said". (Sort of stuff)

If Azmula and Aurum have something to say. I let them to say it and put their name on the bottom of it! Then we all know where it came from and who is accountable for it. From there we can "consider the source", and form our own opinions.


Jim
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