Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:29 pm

Here's another pic of my friend with all the gold bars.

Image

Best-Mike

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by coazon de oro » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:16 am

Hello Mike, I always meant to ask you about your avatar. That's awesome, thanks for sharing. Homar

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:43 pm

:lol: :lol:

Mike,

I think your friend there got dizzy from all that gold!! His head is spinning :lol: :lol:


Beth (Mrs. O)

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by wmcneely » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:42 pm

Jim,

My name is Warren McNeely and I have a science background in geophysics and geology. I was interested in LDM years ago. I have just recently become aware of the Peralta stone maps. Dating them was done by which technique? If they were out in the open for any length of time they could have built up what is known as "Desert Varnish" Which could aid in dating them.

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Warren

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:47 pm

Warren,

I know you asked this of Jim, but he is out for a couple of days.

To answer your question, they were buried, and as such, no desert varnish buildup.

How they were tested is something I am still trying to find out. The only two names ever mentioned as testors have both passed away several years ago. The widow of one doesn't live that far from me and seems like she wants to help.

Bob Corbin is the source of the other dating. In 1964 he was shown the Stone Maps by FBI Agents (Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona). Those agents told him that it was the opinion of the FBI that the Stone Maps were AT LEAST one hundred years old (in 1964).

Another cursory examination was made on the Stone Maps that are currently in the possession of the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. The people that looked at them said they saw drill bit marks on them that would make them much younger than 100 years. The only problem with that examination is that "supposedly" in 1969 or 1970, while the Stone Maps were in the possession of Clarence O. Mitchell of MOEL Inc, a second set was manufactured so one of Mitchell's Partners could have two originals and two reproductions. If true, the examination may have been done on one of the reproductions.

Hope this helps.

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:49 pm

Hello Warren and welcome to the forums.

I can't add a thing to what Mike (Gollum) already told you except an opinion regarding his last paragraph.


Quote: "The only problem with that examination is that "supposedly" in 1969 or 1970, while the Stone Maps were in the possession of Clarence O. Mitchell of MOEL Inc, a second set was manufactured so one of Mitchell's Partners could have two originals and two reproductions. If true, the examination may have been done on one of the reproductions."


I do not accept any of the stories about Mitchell making any duplicates of the stone maps. The more you dig into that story, the more ridiculous the story gets.

Some people disagree with me and that is their right. If a duplicate ever turns up, I may reconsider, but one never has, and I doubt one ever will.

Jim

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Jim,

That's why I said "supposedly." I can't say for certain, but it is a possibility. A possibility that I am also looking into.

In my opinion, until documentary evidence surfaces either for or against their authenticity, everything rides on the word of Bob Corbin.

If you don't believe Bob Corbin, then you can believe the Stone Maps are frauds.

If you believe the man, then you have to take his word about what the FBI Agents showed him and said to him in 1964. From there, you have to believe in the authenticity of the Stone Maps. That's where I am, because I have absolutely ZERO reason to doubt the word of the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona.

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Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by gollum » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:20 am

While there is no hard evidence to say either way, but their IS a lot of circumstantial evidence:

I have said this over and over again, until I am blue in the face:

"Look at people's actions. Not their words. More often than not, what a person DOES will tell you about their true intentions than what they SAY!"

Travis Tumlinson: Kept the existence of the Stone Maps a virtual secret (to most) from 1949 until his death in 1961. In all those years, he never once tried to sell them or profit from them. He made about twelve trips from Oregon to the Supers trying to solve the Stone Maps. Not the actions of a man in possession of something he knew to be fake.

Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Brother): Had possession of the Stone Maps during his brothers poor health (about 1956-1960). Although he was on a meager pension (read SMALL), he kept the Stone Maps in boxes under his bed. He never oncve tried to sell them or profit from them in any way. He made 4 or 5 trips to the Supers (with his landlord) trying to solve the Stone Maps. Again, not the actions of a man in possession of something he knew to be fake!

Aileen Tumlinson (Travis' Wife): After Travis died in 1961, she sold the Stone Maps to an old family friend (Clarence Mitchell) for $1200. Would you sell something you knew to be fake to an old family friend? I certainly wouldn't.

Clarence O Mitchell: Kept the existence of the Stone Maps a secret for the three years following his purchase of them. Actions by some of his partners in MOEL Inc, forced him to make their existence public in 1964. Although he possessed them from 1961 until 1970, he never once attempted to sell them, or use them to get money. He finally donated them (after the breakup of MOEL) in 1970 to the AL Flagg/ AZ Mining & Minerals Museum where they are today. Again, not the actions of a man in possession of something he knew to be fake!

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:35 am

gollum wrote:Jim,

That's why I said "supposedly." I can't say for certain, but it is a possibility. A possibility that I am also looking into.

In my opinion, until documentary evidence surfaces either for or against their authenticity, everything rides on the word of Bob Corbin.

If you don't believe Bob Corbin, then you can believe the Stone Maps are frauds.

If you believe the man, then you have to take his word about what the FBI Agents showed him and said to him in 1964. From there, you have to believe in the authenticity of the Stone Maps. That's where I am, because I have absolutely ZERO reason to doubt the word of the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona.

Best-Mike

Morning Mike,

Bob Corbin's word, and the story about the FBI's opinion about the age of the maps, has never been questioned by anyone that I know of. The issue I took acceptation to, was the story about Mitchel making duplicates of the maps, and the Mineral and Mining Museum only having half of the original stones. Which are currently on display at the Superstition Mountain / Lost Dutchman Museum in Apache Junction.

Jim

Jim Hatt

Re: Are the stone Maps Authentic or are they a Hoax?

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am

gollum wrote:
Clarence O Mitchell: Kept the existence of the Stone Maps a secret for the three years following his purchase of them. Actions by some of his partners in MOEL Inc, forced him to make their existence public in 1964. Although he possessed them from 1961 until 1970, he never once attempted to sell them, or use them to get money. He finally donated them (after the breakup of MOEL) in 1970 to the AL Flagg/ AZ Mining & Minerals Museum where they are today. Again, not the actions of a man in possession of something he knew to be fake!

Best-Mike
Mike,

One of the problems is that most people are not aware of all the time invested by the Tumlinson's, and by Mitchell in their attempts to solve the maps long before they were ever made public. Like you pointed out. This goes a LONG ways towards establishing whether THEY all thought the stones were authentic or not. I couldn't agree with you more in believing that people's ACTIONS speak much louder than their words ever could.

We are kind of going over the same information again that has already been presented with more detail, in the Peralta Stone Map thread http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic. ... bin#p13704 back on Dec 3, 2009. I will quote some of it below that fleshes out the story a little more. It is important to remember that Mitchel did not "Happily" donate the Stones to the Mining & Minerals Museum.

Jim Hatt wrote:There is a lot of incorrect information about the history of the stone maps in circulation on the internet which cannot be traced to any credible source.

ie: It has been alleged that Clarence Mitchell had copies of the stone maps made so he could divide the set equally with a partner, each of them taking two original stones and two copies. Whoever started this rumor going around had never seen the original maps, and had only seen reproductions of them.

They believed that in the original set, the Priest and Horse stones were two separate stones, and that one partner received the original trail map stones and copies of the Priest and Horse stones, while the other received the original Priest and horse stones and copies of the Trail Map stones.

In truth... The Horse and Priest stones are actually the same stone with the Horse Map on one side, and the Priest Map the other.

In all the reproductions of the stone maps, the Priest and Horse stones are reproduced as separate stones adding an extra piece to the number of stones in the set.

There has never been any evidence that Mitchell ever made copies of the stone maps. The first copies were made in the 1980's, long after they had been "donated" to the Flagg Foundation.

Another misconception is that Mitchell donated the stones to the Flagg Foundation for a tax write off. According to a conversation I had with Bob Corbin, that donation resulted from something similar to a plea bargain.

ie: Although not word for word. This is basically what Bob told me....
A dispute arose between Mitchell and people that had invested in his efforts to solve where the maps lead to. When all efforts failed to find the treasure, one of the main investors wanted SOMETHING to show for the money they had invested in the project, and demanded that Mitchell give them the stone maps in return for their investment.

Mitchell refused, and a legal dispute was filed with the State Attorney's Office where Bob Corbin was a Deputy Attorney. The stones were eventually confiscated, when someone in that office began to look at them as possibly being covered by the Antiquities Act because of where Mitchell claimed that Tumlinson had found them. (On Government land). The FBI was asked to examine the stones to determine if they were old enough to be covered by the Antiquities Act, giving the Government the right to claim ownership to them, ending the legal dispute over ownership.

The conclusion reached by the FBI was that (in their opinion) they were at least 100 years old (Back in the 1960's when the evaluation was made). Since this was only an OPINION and not a proven FACT the State Attorney's Office was weary of confiscating the stones under the Antiquities Act, because they were unsure if the FBI's OPINION would hold up in court if it came to that. Mitchell was facing the possibility of being prosecuted for violation of the Antiquities Act.

The State was faced with coming up with more evidence than just the FBI's “opinion” about the age of the stones, and was perusing that avenue in order to move in that direction, when everyone agreed that it would be simpler to just donate the stones to a non-profit organization, and avoid a lengthy and expensive court trial for both sides.



Mitchell may, or may not have received a tax deduction for the donation. In either case, that would not be relevant to the authenticity of the stone maps.

The bottom line is... Yes Mitchell donated the maps to the Flagg Foundation, but it was done under duress, to avoid the possibility of a lengthy court trial, and legal fees to defend himself against possible charges of violation of the Antiquities Act.

Since it was actually Tumlinson that was "supposed" to have found them and perhaps removed them illegally, the State's case would have been difficult to prove against Mitchell, but he was in possession of them, and therefore considered accountable.

It was a big mess with a number of possible outcomes in the end, and a lot of legal expenses on both sides if it went to trial. It should be easy for anyone to see why in the end, everyone agreed to the idea of donating the stones to the Flagg Foundation and avoiding litigation.

It is unfortunate for all of us that trial never took place. It would have included a lot of testimony made under oath, about who, what, when and where the stone maps were found, and the history about them from that point on, and prevented most of the speculation, and false information being circulated today.

The non-believers, who base all of their opinions about the stone maps, on what they have read about them, will never experience any kind of satisfaction or enjoyment from them, other than whatever warped sense of joy they get from annoying the believers. On the other hand... The believers, who spend time on the trail, are constantly rewarded with new findings that support their beliefs.
For the record: Mitchell never had the Stones in possession again once they were confiscated, and turned over to the FBI. The myth that he made copies, and only donated half of the original stones to the M&M Museum totally untrue.



NOTE: All 3 ORIGINAL Stone Maps that were found by Travis Tumlinson, are currently on display in the Superstition Mountain Museum in Apache junction.


SEE: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=470
AND: http://superstitionmountainmuseum.org/
Jim

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