The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Moderator: gollum
- javaone
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:34 am
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Thanks Mike, - I'll check it out...
Jerry
Jerry
- gollum
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:41 pm
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
- Location: http://www.1oro1.com
- Contact:
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
One more thing................
If you do find Jesuit Hearts, it will most likely not mean the same thing as a Spanish Heart. Remember, the Jesuits were hiding things from the Spanish and would not have left clues the Spanish could understand.
Best-Mike
If you do find Jesuit Hearts, it will most likely not mean the same thing as a Spanish Heart. Remember, the Jesuits were hiding things from the Spanish and would not have left clues the Spanish could understand.
Best-Mike
- silent hunter
- Posts: 650
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:27 am
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
- Location: Apache Junction
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Gollum Thanx much for your reserch I am all over what you have spent so much time with.. I must say though I have never seen HAHAHA used so perfectly.
-
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Mike:
I can well imagine that some of the discoveries made during study of Jesuit history do prompt a few HAHAHA guffaws.Many a statement of "truth" made by Jesuit denialists have cracked me up as well.I do suspect however,that the friars themselves were more reserved in their sense of humour,prone to the odd chuckle from time to time as they went about their work.
A quote from Florence Weinburg:
"The most impressive of the Jesuit mission churches came next day, farther upriver at Arispe, where Carlos Rojas, S.J. served for 14 years and built a magnificent stone church. His name is incised on the facade along with various symbols, including sun and moon, and pillars where saints' statues were once attached. Inside, the lofty ceiling is beamed with carved mesquite (I still can't quite imagine mesquite trees that big), and the retablos in the transepts are both originals, ca. 1720's. I found Rojas' church especially moving."
A "HAHAHA" observation
Seems that the good father had at least one competent stoneworker on staff.Incised symbols are a rarety on mission walls,from what I gather,and I doubt that these symbols would have chisel marks visible,(a point that the doubters always seem to make),despite a lack of modern power tools at the time. Not that difficult to scrape and sand chisel marks out,anyway.
I have been looking for a photo(s) of the front of the church that gives a good view of the "symbols" that the author mentions.Any photos of cemetary markers from the relevant timeframe could also lead to a "HAHAHA" as well.
Anything in your files,Mike?
I can well imagine that some of the discoveries made during study of Jesuit history do prompt a few HAHAHA guffaws.Many a statement of "truth" made by Jesuit denialists have cracked me up as well.I do suspect however,that the friars themselves were more reserved in their sense of humour,prone to the odd chuckle from time to time as they went about their work.
A quote from Florence Weinburg:
"The most impressive of the Jesuit mission churches came next day, farther upriver at Arispe, where Carlos Rojas, S.J. served for 14 years and built a magnificent stone church. His name is incised on the facade along with various symbols, including sun and moon, and pillars where saints' statues were once attached. Inside, the lofty ceiling is beamed with carved mesquite (I still can't quite imagine mesquite trees that big), and the retablos in the transepts are both originals, ca. 1720's. I found Rojas' church especially moving."
A "HAHAHA" observation
Seems that the good father had at least one competent stoneworker on staff.Incised symbols are a rarety on mission walls,from what I gather,and I doubt that these symbols would have chisel marks visible,(a point that the doubters always seem to make),despite a lack of modern power tools at the time. Not that difficult to scrape and sand chisel marks out,anyway.
I have been looking for a photo(s) of the front of the church that gives a good view of the "symbols" that the author mentions.Any photos of cemetary markers from the relevant timeframe could also lead to a "HAHAHA" as well.
Anything in your files,Mike?
-
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
From a Jesuit publication of 1672.
Maybe the higher ups kept all the good stuff from poor Fr. Polzer?
An authority on Jesuit history? HAHAHA
(sarc)
Regards:Somehiker
Maybe the higher ups kept all the good stuff from poor Fr. Polzer?
An authority on Jesuit history? HAHAHA
(sarc)
Regards:Somehiker
- gollum
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:41 pm
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
- Location: http://www.1oro1.com
- Contact:
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
No,
I believe Father Polzer SJ knew exactly which parts of history he wanted to omit from general knowledge. As my friend in Tumacacori always says "I believe Father Polzer's sole purpose in all his works was to have Father Kino Cannonized."
Everything and anything that would have cast ANY of the frontier Jesuit Fathers in a bad light (including admitting their breaking of both Royal Decrees and Ecclesiastical Precepts of mining and businesses for profit), would have made cannonization of Father Kino more difficult. That is why (I believe) that Father Polzer was such a staunch disbeliever of anything to do with Jesuits owning treasures, or mining.
Best-Mike
I believe Father Polzer SJ knew exactly which parts of history he wanted to omit from general knowledge. As my friend in Tumacacori always says "I believe Father Polzer's sole purpose in all his works was to have Father Kino Cannonized."
Everything and anything that would have cast ANY of the frontier Jesuit Fathers in a bad light (including admitting their breaking of both Royal Decrees and Ecclesiastical Precepts of mining and businesses for profit), would have made cannonization of Father Kino more difficult. That is why (I believe) that Father Polzer was such a staunch disbeliever of anything to do with Jesuits owning treasures, or mining.
Best-Mike
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Hi Mike,
I think your friend in Tumacacori probably said it as well as it can be said!
Jim
I think your friend in Tumacacori probably said it as well as it can be said!
Jim
-
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Mike and Jim:
As is now and was the case back when,I'm sure that only those most pragmatic and best informed men are allowed to take authoritative positions on behalf of the church and the order.Father Polzer SJ held such a position at the University of Arizona,as we all know,and his publications and stand on Jesuit activities in the southwest are often quoted by those who rely on his stated opinions to promote their own.
Thus the "sarc" in my post.
An article,authored by Fr.Polzer,re:the beautification of Padre Kino.
http://www.companysj.com/v194/padre.htm
Regards:Wayne
As is now and was the case back when,I'm sure that only those most pragmatic and best informed men are allowed to take authoritative positions on behalf of the church and the order.Father Polzer SJ held such a position at the University of Arizona,as we all know,and his publications and stand on Jesuit activities in the southwest are often quoted by those who rely on his stated opinions to promote their own.
Thus the "sarc" in my post.
An article,authored by Fr.Polzer,re:the beautification of Padre Kino.
http://www.companysj.com/v194/padre.htm
Regards:Wayne
- Bar Tender
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:10 am
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
- Location: Just north of the border
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Rumor has it Kino will be elevated to Sainthood next year, the 300th anniversary of his death.
Nad
Nad
-
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:42 am
- anti-spam detector: No
- The middle number please (4): 4
Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures
Hmmmm Interesting, as far as it has gone. I can definitely add many pages myself, some conflicting with present posts.
VIVA TAYOPA !
Don Jose de La Mancha
VIVA TAYOPA !
Don Jose de La Mancha