The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:49 am

George:
"Maybe some of you have seen this De Grazia drawing before. But for those who have not seen it, perhaps, in my humble opinion, is another piece of the puzzle of what De Grazia may have known (or not known!) about the Jesuit treasure, the LDM and/or the Peralta Stones.
"
Considering DeGrazia's history of close relationships with some of the tribes of the southwest (Papago and Yaqui primarily) and the people of Mexico,as well as his friendship with other artists such as Diego Rivera,Jose Orozco and Thomas Hart Benton,all founded on his love of art,DeGrazia would have learned a great deal about the history of the the natives,the Mexicans and the Jesuits.His art,including this map,undoubtedly reflects much of what he believed to be true.
Through these friendships,he may have been privy to unpublished information about Jesuit activities prior to their expulsion,including any knowledge of Jesuit/Mexican mining and wealth.Perhaps this information prompted DeGrazia's expedition into the Superstitions,as reported in the article below.

Image
Image

While Joe Clemente's statement in the article indicates that DeGrazia believes the LDM to be a "myth",DeGrazia was seeking gold in the Sups.His map suggests the gold (ORO) was Jesuit (JESUITA).

Also:
The presence of DeGrazia's signature on the map does not necessarily indicate that he was the author of this map.The Peralta/Fish map and it's copies,for example, were signed by several who did not create the original.This map,which could also be the one mentioned by Clemente in the article,could have been DeGrazia's copy of a map made by the Yaqui.

Regards:Somehiker

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:16 am

Wayne,

De Grazia calls the drawing a "Midnight Sketch" without giving credit to any other source. It may very well be the results of information from his many Native American and Mexican friends, but that would be a guess without any evidence, that I know of, to support it.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:15 pm

Joe:
DeGrazia often notated his works as "Midnight Sketch",and did many as an antidote to insomnia.
No others were maps,that I am aware of.Or with the single word "Midnight" for that matter,although "Sketch" may be written below the scanned image.
Much of what we all believe is actually based on evidence which has little or no documentation to support it.In this case, we can only note what his companion said to the reporter who wrote the story.
"DeGrazia as you know,is blood brother to the Yaquis.It is possible that from them he obtained a map"
Both the map and the article do provide documentation of DeGrazia's personal belief in non-LDM gold in the mountains.If he indeed sketched the map as an original,at the very least it illustrates a belief in Jesuit Gold.

Regards:Somehiker

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:38 pm

Wayne,

"DeGrazia often notated his works as "Midnight Sketch",and did many as an antidote to insomnia."

Actually, I believe DeGrazia did most of his painting at night and in the early hours of the morning, because those were the quiet hours. He needed silence to do his best creative work.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:01 pm

Joe:
That which you quoted came from a source who knew the man personally as a friend and has been a long-time collector of his art (originals).
As you so often say,one of the best.
I believe he was telling the truth.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:34 pm

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Hi Mike,

I was not questioning the spelling of "agua" or "pescado". I believe both are correct. I wanted to know if George took that to mean "Fish Creek".

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

I knew what you meant, but I was also showing that, as you said (and I agree with) that both the map and the stone maps were not made in the maker's native language. To me, it comes down to two possibilities:

1. Stone Maps are hoaxes/fantasy creations(whatever), made by Travis Tumlinson.

2. Stone Maps were made by German Jesuits.

In either case, some words were spelled phonetically and not correctly. Misspellings in Colonial Spanish Documents are more common than uncommon, and should not be considered proof positive of a hoax.

Mike

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:55 pm

Wayne,

The person, I believe, who probably knew him better than anyone else in this world, was Carol Locust. On page's 38 & 39 of "DeGrazia: The Rest of the Story" she describes a conversation they had at their first meeting in Tucson. It was about silence and how much it meant to both of them.

Because of the content of that conversation, it's obvious that it was an important exchange of information between them and not something she would ever forget.

I have no doubt that many people who knew DeGrazia in a less personal manner than Carol, probably believed that his late night work was due to insomnia.

In that conversation, she said that Ted told her: "That is why I paint at night, early in the morning, when the rest of the world is sleeping. I need silence to create."

Not only do I believe that is what he told her, I understand it completely. If you read that conversation for yourself, I imagine you will believe it as well.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:02 am

Joe:
I did not have to read any conversation described by an author to obtain that information.
It came from a conversation I had with Marion DeGrazia in 1996.
A very close friend and collector of his original art.
His wife as well.
She didn't mention Carol Locust...or Domingo.

Best:Wayne

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:36 am

somehiker wrote:Joe:
That which you quoted came from a source who knew the man personally as a friend and has been a long-time collector of his art (originals).
As you so often say,one of the best.
I believe he was telling the truth.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

DeGrazia started his long-term affair with Carol Locust in 1973. They did have a son together. She does not mention him having insomnia, but does write about his late night work. His wife's saying he had insomnia makes sense. I imagine she needed to justify why he was missing from her bed all those years.

Degrazia's lawyer, now represents both Domingo and Carol Locust.

Domingo "owns the largest collection of DeGrazia originals, signed prints, bronzes, and so forth outside of the Gallery in the Sun."

On the other hand, it's more than possible that Carol just made up the whole thing to fill pages in her book.

Sounds like your source is the best, despite a bit of confusion. No doubt you are correct.

Take care,

Joe
Last edited by i-tsari-tsu-i on Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:29 am

Mike,

[2. Stone Maps were made by German Jesuits.]

Is there something on the maps that convinces you that the Jesuits, as opposed to, say the Franciscans, created the maps?

There were, and are, many German emigrants in Arizona but, perhaps it was another ethnic group altogether.

Take care,

Joe

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