The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Moderator: gollum

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:08 pm

Joe:
Actually two sources according to my notes.A male friend and writer,Ron Butler,who had written several articles about DG....and his wife,who now that I have looked up those notes,actually only said that he often made those comments on things he worked on when he could not sleep.I only took her to mean drawings,and didn't know about his mistress at the time.I also took her to mean insomnia,not in-som---- ;) .Sorry for the confusion....had a bit of insomnia myself last night.
You could be correct.I am sure that most women who take up with married men believe that they know more about the man than the wife or anyone else for that matter.If they are a writer,that is what they will be sure to express in their story about that relationship as well.I would expect nothing less.Especially when that is what they often are told by the wayward husband.
I haven't read Carol's book,(I now intend to),but from what I understand,DG did not leave her much of anything and only set up a trust fund for Domingo's education.Is that why they have retained DeGrazia's former lawyer?

Neither reason given for his late night habits address the map sketch,however.
Or the lack of similarities between the map sketch and the Stone Maps.
The style is different,the words are different.
It's on paper,rather than stone.
And it says both Jesuita and Gold.

Then again,maybe DG learned how to spell, sometime between 1948/9 and 1979.
Who knows? Maybe he didn't know how to spell "PASTA" when he carved that old horse.
Coulda been what he was thinking about after the night shift. :idea:
Carol would probably know.

One of Ron's articles....http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/chri ... id=1071439

Best:Wayne

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:15 pm

Wayne,

I think you may have a slightly different opinion after you read Carol's book.

"I am sure that most women who take up with married men believe that they know more about the man than the wife or anyone else for that matter."

She did not know he was married when she first took up with DeGrazia. When she found out, she was torn about continuing to see him. By then, it was too late for her. Ted had become part of her family and "Pa-Pa" to her children.

You need to look at the whole picture of her life situation to understand what took place between them. Ted needed her as bad as she needed him....emotionally.
There was a great deal of sadness in both of their lives.

Take care,

Joe
Last edited by i-tsari-tsu-i on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:05 pm

Joe:
Once I have,perhaps then we can further discuss the story of Ted DeGrazia and Carol Locust as a new topic.

Regards:Wayne

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:03 pm

I would also think DeGrazia,having spent most of his life in the company of Mexicans,would have learned a fair bit of Spanish.It should have made him relatively fluent in both speaking and writing in the manner of those who he associated with,from Diego Rivera in Mexico City to Compoy,Garsa and Romero,his companions on the treasure seeking expedition into the Superstitions.Their expedition took place in early Oct. 1962.The map was drawn in 1978,perhaps based on DeGrazia's memories of that trip into the mountains.
The use of " PALO FIERO ", rather than Palo de Fiero on his map is another nail in the coffin of the DeGazia-Stone Map theory, IMO.

Regards:Somehiker

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:17 pm

Wayne,

[The use of " PALO FIERO ", rather than Palo de Fiero on his map is another nail in the coffin of the DeGazia-Stone Map theory, IMO.]

Can you tell us why you find that so telling?

Thanks,

Joe

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:31 pm

Joe:
Whoever made the H/P Stone,and I do believe a second person did make it,used "DE" on the stone.
De Grazia did not,on his map,despite the common use of Palo de Fierro among contemporary spanish writers."Palo de hierro" is also used.He could have written "El Palo de fierro" as well,which would have been closer to the style of writing on the stones,but he didn't.He also omitted an "r" in "fierro",a misspelling unlike that which appears on the stone.

Merry Christmas
To you and Caroline:
Wayne

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Wayne,

It seems possible that one person carved the figures and another did the lettering. As I have mentioned many times before, the fact that the heart is removed (plucked) from the Stone Maps is, to me, an important clue to the creators.

The fact that the Stone Map Trail goes right through the middle of the Harry LaFrance search area for the cave of gold bars is another important clue. One of the markings on the side of that trail might just be his cave.

There is a pretty good piece of evidence connecting Ted to the LaFrance Family. I believe you have seen it. The fact that finding any documented history of any LaFrance in Arizona leads to only one (1) person, and he is found in Tucson, Ted's stomping grounds, seems a bit
of a coincidence. It may be that that is all it is, but I like the direction it seems to point.

That being said, I would not bet the farm on that story, but I would also not bet the farm against it being a valid clue.

It remains an interesting theory, at least to me. I have high hopes that someone else will pick up on the story, with more energy and smarts than I, and see if it goes anywhere.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your's as well.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Mrs.Oroblanco
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:40 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:48 pm

Hello,

The "Fiero" versus "Fierro" doesn't mean anything is misspelled.

"Fiero" means "Fierce"

"Fierro" means "iron"

Perhaps it is referring to two different things.

Beth

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:49 am

Beth:
So,rather than Iron-wood,he may have meant "Fierce" and "tree,wood or stick,mast,post,pole" ?
Just like fish and water...or Jesuit and gold
Without an X,it sure gets confusing,don't it!

User avatar
Exploration Fawcett
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:06 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Africa

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Exploration Fawcett » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Joe/Wayne-SomeHiker/Beth:
Sorry for not responding earlier to all of your comments regarding De Grazia's map/sketch. Traveling back and forth from Africa to Arizona keeps me busy. Let me respond to each of the main issues (palo fierro/ironwood; pescado agua/fish creek; whether the sketch was made by De Grazia himself):

1. Palo Fiero: Even though I am a native Spanish speaker and clearly understood "palo fierro", I looked up about three different english-spanish dictionaries and ironwood is translated as "palo fierro". Note that there is no "de" in the translation. The translation of ironwood is "palo fierro" without the "de" in between the words. Therefore, De Grazia correctly wrote the translation of ironwood. However, the word "fiero" is misspelled. The correct spelling should be "fierro" with 2 "r" which is iron in english. Well, as you well know the Stone Maps also have a few misspellings, most notably the "r" in coazon (heart), which should be written as "corazon". Maybe De Grazia omitted the "r" in fierro as a pun or as a hint to signal that he knew more about the Stone Maps than people realize. Think about it - two maps with misspellings involving the letter "r".

2. Pecado Agua: I have been a student of the lost dutchman mine, the Stone Maps, and De Grazia since 1998. I am familiar with many of the words and concepts in the history of the LDM and the Stone Maps. My first impression when I read "pescado agua" in De Grazia's sketch was that he was referring to Fish Creek. No doubt about it. Otherwise, the words pescado and agua by themselves are meaningless. I have no doubt that "pescado agua" next to lines that seems like a stream of water mean "Fish Creek" in my opinion.

3. Whether De Grazia drew the sketch: I live about 10 minutes from De Grazia's Gallery in the Sun and as such I literally have spent over thirteen years studying De Grazia in his own gallery with the specific purpose of looking for clues to the LDM and the Stone Maps. In my opinion, the skecth was made by De Grazia himself. Now, whether he may have been copying from another map, we may never know. But, I am certain that the sketch represents his style and handwritting.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment and assist in the quest.

Very Respectfully
George

Post Reply