The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

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somehiker
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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:36 pm

George:
Online translators,while having some use are also notoriously inadequate at times for our purposes.
Although you may be as you say,"a native Spanish speaker",it seems you are unaware of the differing ways that others who communicate in spanish spell these words.Or may have in the past.

A simple search of both (Palo de Fierro) and of (Coazon) or (El Coazon) will take us to many sites of Spanish origin which use both words/terms as spelled in parenthesis.
Example: for (El Coazon)one result of many is this...http://forum.wordreference.com/showthre ... 828...note the description of "Coazon" as being an older form of spelling.
...wordreference.com is the online translation site I have found to give better results....
Example: for (Palo de Fierro) one result,also of many is this...http://www.desertharvesters.org/native- ... -ironwood/

"DESERT IRONWOOD NOMENCLATURE
(return to top)

Compiled by Jill Lorenzini

Family: Fabaceae or Leguminosae (Pea family)

Latin name: Olneya tesota

Tohono O’odham Name: ????

Spanish Names: palo de fierro, palo de hierro, tésota, comitín, una de gato
"

Now.
If you search (Palo Fiero),what you find will be interesting.
It seems there is a street in Tucson named and spelled " S. Avenida Del Palo Fiero "

I have no doubt Degrazia sketched the paper map.
I am also certain he had nothing to do with the creation of any of the Stone Maps.
Other than copies perhaps.
Nor did any of his friends,IMO.

Regards:Somehiker
Last edited by somehiker on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Exploration Fawcett » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:06 pm

Somehiker:
Excellent points! Thank you for the background information and links.

V/R
George

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:07 pm

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Wayne,

It seems possible that one person carved the figures and another did the lettering. As I have mentioned many times before, the fact that the heart is removed (plucked) from the Stone Maps is, to me, an important clue to the creators.

The fact that the Stone Map Trail goes right through the middle of the Harry LaFrance search area for the cave of gold bars is another important clue. One of the markings on the side of that trail might just be his cave.

There is a pretty good piece of evidence connecting Ted to the LaFrance Family. I believe you have seen it. The fact that finding any documented history of any LaFrance in Arizona leads to only one (1) person, and he is found in Tucson, Ted's stomping grounds, seems a bit
of a coincidence. It may be that that is all it is, but I like the direction it seems to point.

That being said, I would not bet the farm on that story, but I would also not bet the farm against it being a valid clue.

It remains an interesting theory, at least to me. I have high hopes that someone else will pick up on the story, with more energy and smarts than I, and see if it goes anywhere.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your's as well.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

The Stone Maps were not likely to have been carved in haste,or by one person.
I doubt any of us will ever know the facts as to who carved what,or exactly when.

I'm not sure that a signed copy of a book,possibly done at a book-signing in 1976..long after the Stones became widely known..is particularly strong evidence of a LaFrance/DeGrazia connection to the Stone Maps.Nor do I see where both having resided in Tucson is any more than a tenuous link.
They both were interested in the Superstitions,lost treasure,and probably the Stone maps as well.
As countless others have been since they were found by Tumlinson. :D :) :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol: :x :P
Is there evidence that they were friends before 1948/9 ?
Did deGrazia ever mention LaFrance or his cave in any publication?
Is there any photograph of them together?
That kind of evidence would be less ambiguous.

Chuck Aylor's favorite Shakespearian quote may have been the result of his interest in the stones,as opposed to the stones being the the result of his interest in Shakepeare.
I have a favorite quote as well,also from Hamlet..."The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
It's one which I have been reminded of many times while hearing others claim their opinion,their "Trail",or that of others as a "fact"....repetitiously in fact.
Aylor may have had it wrong,though.
While the Heart Stones can be removed from the Trail Map,they can also be placed within the cavity,something that to me makes more sense.
For both hearts,red and black,IMO.

I once shared some of your suspicions about DG and the maps.
Others have as well,and have searched the mountains for evidence and published their theories.
One such is: http://books.google.ca/books?id=sckq9Ej ... edir_esc=y
The author makes a case for the LDM,and the many maps as well as the Stone Maps being modern creations of the Don's Club and DeGrazia.

Throw Bob Ward's story about DeGrazia's buried paintings into the mix though,and more theories might come into play as well.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by thehunter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:25 pm

Hello somehiker, how are you doing, my friend. The peralta stones were dug up as they say.nobody mentioned had anything to do with the carving of the stones.I know that there are many rumors that have gone around since the 1950's but the stones were made for someone to find. I think in the last part of the molina document it stated that if you find the treasure you should give back a percentage, to help the needy.I'm going to post the first stones I found near a mission.I have to look for them.

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by somehiker » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:06 pm

thehunter wrote:Hello somehiker, how are you doing, my friend. The peralta stones were dug up as they say.nobody mentioned had anything to do with the carving of the stones.I know that there are many rumors that have gone around since the 1950's but the stones were made for someone to find. I think in the last part of the molina document it stated that if you find the treasure you should give back a percentage, to help the needy.I'm going to post the first stones I found near a mission.I have to look for them.
Doing good tH, thanks for asking.
Been very busy working with the information and samples gathered during my own venture last October. And so many other things to do or get squared away as well. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Stones are real...at least the originals were..., and that those who made them were long gone before any of them, even Abe Reid's "Perficio Map" was found. I look forward to seeing the photos of your stones as well.

As to how the Stones were found by T.Tumlinson, I believe that he had obtained information whereas to their location from within documents collected by his grandfather. These documents may have included a more detailed account of the attempt by Fr.Keller to reach the Moqui villages in the north via a trail which crossed Queen Creek on it's route through the Superstitions.
This trek was led by Keller with a military escort . Although it's stated purpose was to establish a route to the Moqui, I believe Keller had meant to cache the Stones at a place within the mountains where cache sites had already been prepared, possibly without the full knowledge of the members of the military escort. The surprise attack by the Apache left them without the ability to carry on, and unwilling to risk discovery, Keller may have decided to cache the Stones where they were found by Tumlinson in 1948-49.
Keller's trip is briefly noted in this account by Fr. J. Sedelmayer.....

Image

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by thehunter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:34 am

I know mike that the discussions above were three years ago but I have to tell you that they were real interesting, you should write a book.I knew that the jesuit order took a vow of poverty and im sure they kept it.that anything accumulated was for the church if im right.
When my daughter was attending loyola marymount, many years ago I spoke to a priest and told him what I was doing he listened and I could see his interest in his eyes especially when I told him the sizes of the areas that were marked for treasure.On our very next hike in the mountains we came upon two elder men, they had the same simple gold rings on their fingers. From shaking their hands we knew they never did much physical work, their hands were very soft. Their clothes and boots were new and my biggest surprise was their hats, they were both wearing straw hats.I had heard jesuits liked wearing straw hats.we were getting the third degree from both of them.they inquired why we were up in the mountains, what we were looking for and why we came all the way from los angeles.all they said about themselves is they were businessmen and lived in the area.they looked like they never went in the sun much.After a few hours we hiked down from the Mountains down to our vehicles. We were rushing because it would get dark soon.driving down the mountains we saw a person sitting on a boulder. He WAS young and was wearing a straw hat yet he had his shirt off and had a bad sunburn.we asked him if he wanted water or a ride.He didn't want any help and told us he was going to hike to a certain destination. We told him it would take to long that it was going to get dark soon, but he wouldn't take our help.at least I noticed that he had a thermos. We had no proof that they were priests but I had a gut feeling they were.
The map I have is a copy of the original, it gives markings of the locations of the mines.like one thats on the peralta stones. One location is sangre de dios. Another is santa maria. So it's like a part of a larger map.the latin heart is simular, but it also gives quantities that match up with the markings.the entry on the heart that says caverna or cavern is there in the mountains. I had to break a code but found it.





They didn't make anything easy and all the terrain looks natural like they never mined in the mountains, all erased.







mountains to our vehicles. We drove down a dirt road, saw a person sitting on a boulder..HE WAS YOUNG, A

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by thehunter » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:11 pm

thehunter wrote:I know mike that the discussions above were three years ago but I have to tell you that they were real interesting, you should write a book.I knew that the jesuit order took a vow of poverty and im sure they kept it.that anything accumulated was for the church if im right.
When my daughter was attending loyola marymount, many years ago I spoke to a priest and told him what I was doing he listened and I could see his interest in his eyes especially when I told him the sizes of the areas that were marked for treasure.On our very next hike in the mountains we came upon two elder men, they had the same simple gold rings on their fingers. From shaking their hands we knew they never did much physical work, their hands were very soft. Their clothes and boots were new and my biggest surprise was their hats, they were both wearing straw hats.I had heard jesuits liked wearing straw hats.we were getting the third degree from both of them.they inquired why we were up in the mountains, what we were looking for and why we came all the way from los angeles.all they said about themselves is they were businessmen and lived in the area.they looked like they never went in the sun much.After a few hours we hiked down from the Mountains down to our vehicles. We were rushing because it would get dark soon.driving down the mountains we saw a person sitting on a boulder. He WAS young and was wearing a straw hat yet he had his shirt off and had a bad sunburn.we asked him if he wanted water or a ride.He didn't want any help and told us he was going to hike to a certain destination. We told him it would take to long that it was going to get dark soon, but he wouldn't take our help.at least I noticed that he had a thermos. We had no proof that they were priests but I had a gut feeling they were.
The map I have is a copy of the original, it gives markings of the locations of the mines.like one thats on the peralta stones. One location is sangre de dios. Another is santa maria. So it's like a part of a larger map.the latin heart is simular, but it also gives quantities that match up with the markings.the entry on the heart that says caverna or cavern is there in the mountains. I had to break a code but found it.





They didn't make anything easy and all the terrain looks natural like they never mined in the mountains, all erased.







mountains to our vehicles. We drove down a dirt road, saw a person sitting on a boulder..HE WAS YOUNG, A

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