The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:38 pm

coazon de oro wrote:Hello everyone, I've been busy with my wife who had a fractured spine from a horse fall. I really didn't feel like posting, but here is my opinion as to where much of the confusion lays concerning Jesuits hidden treasures. Jesus used parables in his teachings, such as the parable of hidden treasure Mat. 13:44. When greedy treasure hunters find: Los Tesoros De Las Iglesias De Santa Fe written anywhere, they think they found a lead. It does indeed translate to:The Treasures Of The Churches Of Holy Faith, but does not refer to material treasure. It refers to such things as faith, baptisum, sacraments, etc. When they find: El Tesoro Escondido, written anywhere, they think they hit the jackpot! It does indeed translate to The Hidden Treasure, but does not refer to material treasure. It is La Misa Santa, or Holy Mass where you search in your own heart for the complete treasure which one receives in La Eucarista, or Holy Communion. It is Jesus Christ and eternal life. I hope everyone finds El Tesoro Escondido, now that you know where to look. The churches were adorned with beautiful relics but only the Jesuits were replaced. Homar P. Olivarez
Welcome Homar,

Where to start? Where to start?

Lets start with the obvious. You stated that only the Jesuits were replaced. If that is so, then what happened to all the gold and silver church adornments that are detailed in the writings of so many Jesuit Priests?

We have the written accounts of Fray Junipero Serra DFM (Franciscan). He was appointed by Spain to found the California Missions in 1768. As part of that mission, he was allowed to take the Church Adornments left by the Jesuits and use them in the new California Mission System. He listed all the things he took from the Churches and Missions, and his lists fall FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR short of what the Jesuit Fathers (such as Joseph Och SJ) described. So far, we know that the Franciscans didn't get all the wealth of the Jesuit Missions and Churches.

It has been suggested that after the Jesuit arrests and expulsions, civilians went into the Missions and Churches formerly in Jesuit possession, and stole all the beautiful adornments. That sounds plausible, except for the fact that entries in some Jesuit Fathers journals make that possibility IMPOSSIBLE!

Maybe we should look a bit further back in time. About one year (1767). When the Spanish Troops arrived in the middle of the night to every Jesuit House in Northwestern New Spain (just after midnight on 25-26 June 1767). In Father Joseph Och SJs journal, he describes how the Spanish Soldiers severely questioned he and his majordomo. They were constantly goaded to tell where the treasure was hidden. He describes how the Spanish Soldiers tore up his residence looking for hidden rooms and vaults (even searching the toilets). This tells any right thinking human that all those treasures described by the Jesuit Fathers were gone when the Spanish Soldiers arrested the Jesuits.

To date, NONE of the artifacts described by the Jesuit Fathers has come to light. With that, I firmly believe that the Jesuits hid the bulk of their gold and silver Church Adornments.

Going back to the original post, where we have Father Charles Polzer SJ admitting that it was possible for there to be caches of gold and silver Church Adornments still hidden away in the wilderness. I have a problem with that. The description of some of the adornments makes it virtually impossible for them to have been transported and cached away without being seen and followed. Would they REALLY have transported the two nine hundred pound cast silver railings and enormous cast silver chandelier? Doubtful. More likely, those rather ponderous decorations would have been melted down and cast into more easily manageable silver ingots. Easier to load onto mules and carry into narrow caves/mines. Also, ingots would have been easy to hide while in transport. They would not have drawn the attention that two twenty foot silver banisters and a twelve foot silver chandelier would have done. THAT would have certainly been an attention getter.

As far as your parable contention, YES! Jesus spoke in parables. The Bible is full of parables. The Spanish hid directions to different things in Bible Verses (i.e. Book of Tobit). What is to say the Jesuits did not do the same. It is likely that the Jesuits would NEVER have hidden anything of value and given ANY directions to it encoded in a way the Spanish might understand. After all, you have to remember that the Jesuits were hiding their wealth from Spanish civilians, military, and Royal Representatives. Jesuits were masters of mathematics and encryption.

Here is where things can go flying off into the Land of OZ if we are not careful. Many people have claimed to have broken the Jesuit Treasure Codes, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut nobody has yet to use their theories and uncovered a Jesuit Treasure Cache. HAHAHA I know of two. One was found with a metal detector (silver), and the other was found after using Mayan Numbers scratched onto a rock as distance measurements and metal detectors for the actual caches (gold). I know of no one who has decrypted a Jesuit Document and had it lead them to a cache. Until that happens, everybody's theory is just as good as everybody else's. Except if they go too far off the deep end.

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:53 pm

Hello Mrs. O, With all due respect I never stated that the Jesuits were gotten rid of, nor did I question their existence. You said: yes they were ( thrown out of places ) that translates to replaced. I also didn't state that God resided in a building, but in one's heart, and in Holy Mass 2 or more people do come together and praise the lord. So I would like to thank you for helping me rest my case on the point I was making about confusion where one person writes one thing and other people read something else. As to the Vatican's wealth, there is power in numbers. The bigger the flock the more wool collected. Checkout The Vatican Billions Two Thousand Years of Wealth Accumulation. Homar

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:05 pm

Hello Jim, and thanks for your concern. I'm not saying there is no material treasure to be found out there, for churches were known to be raided. It wasn't easy for the black robes to get a flock of Arizona wild sheep when one ran they all stampeded. Just recheck the leads you have from a different angle. Oh, I wasn't looking for anything, just the gals were riding. I had just told my friend what a nice mare that was, we didn't know she was coming in heat. When I told my friend that I might take her to Arizona to find the Legendary Cobollo De Santa Fe, I think she overheard me and got over excited about the whole deal. My plans changed right quick. So if you see an old cowboy leading a mare into the Superstitions some day .........Homar

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:26 pm

Hello Mike, I wish I had all the answers, since we have some of the same questions. Maybe the reports were not consistent with what was there. If It sounds too good to be true It probably is. I really don't research the Jesuit or church treasures because I would hate to spend to much of my time on something that if found would be taken away by the church. Homar

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:50 pm

coazon de oro wrote:Hello Mike, I wish I had all the answers, since we have some of the same questions. Maybe the reports were not consistent with what was there. If It sounds too good to be true It probably is. I really don't research the Jesuit or church treasures because I would hate to spend to much of my time on something that if found would be taken away by the church. Homar
HAHAHA While that MAY seem to be the case on the surface. I have copies of several letters from Jesuit Authorities to various treasure hunters that state unequivocally that the Jesuit Order possessed no treasures. There is nothing to find. That sentiment is repeated over and over and over. I would say that if such treasure was found the Church has pretty much dug their own grave in that respect.

If the Jesuit Order were prepared to give me access to any records I wanted and assist me legally and fiscally, I would have no problems working for them for a percentage. They would absolutely have to come clean in this respect though.

You may think what you want, but I have regular correspondence with two of the most noted Jesuit Historians in the United States. They are both also Jesuit Fathers. One teaches at Loyola Marymount and the other teaches at Georgetown University. Neither one of them has a problem with Jesuits being involved (either the Fathers or Coadjutors) in mining. Knowing who these men are, and their reputations, I think I will take their opinions over nameless faceless internet folks (not aimed at you Coazon).

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:54 pm

coazon de oro wrote:Hello Mike, I wish I had all the answers, since we have some of the same questions. Maybe the reports were not consistent with what was there. If It sounds too good to be true It probably is. I really don't research the Jesuit or church treasures because I would hate to spend to much of my time on something that if found would be taken away by the church. Homar
I agree. I wish I had all the answers as well. What we DO HAVE are facts. I have set out the facts as we know them. Please go back and reread my posts regarding what the Jesuit Fathers themselves wrote. They were VERY descriptive. Not likely to have been mistakenly written.

The Jesuits of Northwestern New Spain had a vast treasure trove of silver and gold Church Adornments. Those adornments were not there when the Spanish Soldiers came'a'knockin'. Face it; the smaller things were moved as is and the larger more ponderous things were melted down and hidden as ingots.

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:04 pm

Coazon de oro,

I think you are "deciphering" what I meant incorrectly. Let me try to be a little clearer.

Religion and treasures of the heart are one thing - treasures of the priests is quite another. One does not need the physical treasures of the world to have a church. The Christians have chosen to do otherwise. (including Jesuits, Franciscans, priests, Catholics, etc). And treasures come in all different ways - from gold and silver, to having thousands of cattle, and fields of corn and other crops, and other money-making businesses that were had by the "holy men".

To me, the paradox is that, while Christ had all his diciples give away their wordly goods, the Christian churches have done just the opposite. I believe that the only reason that there is a limited number of Jesuit treasures to be pinpointed, is that they, just like the Church, say it belongs to the Church, rather than to their an individual sect.

No physical building needs gold, silver and all the "adornments" to worship God - but, that is, indeed, what many have, and there is a mass amount of riches in the Catholic Church in Rome, among other places.

THAT is my point - a church is merely a place where people get together - never has it needed - nor has God ever wanted, statues of gold or any other flamboyant displays.

Beth (Mrs. O)

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by cubfan64 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:40 am

Mrs.Oroblanco wrote:Coazon de oro,

I think you are "deciphering" what I meant incorrectly. Let me try to be a little clearer.

Religion and treasures of the heart are one thing - treasures of the priests is quite another. One does not need the physical treasures of the world to have a church. The Christians have chosen to do otherwise. (including Jesuits, Franciscans, priests, Catholics, etc). And treasures come in all different ways - from gold and silver, to having thousands of cattle, and fields of corn and other crops, and other money-making businesses that were had by the "holy men".

To me, the paradox is that, while Christ had all his diciples give away their wordly goods, the Christian churches have done just the opposite. I believe that the only reason that there is a limited number of Jesuit treasures to be pinpointed, is that they, just like the Church, say it belongs to the Church, rather than to their an individual sect.

No physical building needs gold, silver and all the "adornments" to worship God - but, that is, indeed, what many have, and there is a mass amount of riches in the Catholic Church in Rome, among other places.

THAT is my point - a church is merely a place where people get together - never has it needed - nor has God ever wanted, statues of gold or any other flamboyant displays.

Beth (Mrs. O)
Mrs. O - I wholeheartedly agree with you on the bolded statement above!!! I often wonder how religious denominations who place such a high regard on showing off adornments and incredible riches justify not using all of that wealth to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc... It's one of the hypocrisy's that has turned me away from organized religions awhile ago.

Jim Hatt

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:54 am

cubfan64 wrote: Mrs. O - I wholeheartedly agree with you on the bolded statement above!!! I often wonder how religious denominations who place such a high regard on showing off adornments and incredible riches justify not using all of that wealth to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc... It's one of the hypocrisy's that has turned me away from organized religions awhile ago.
My feelings exactly. In the poorer religions, when a member is in trouble, they take up a collection to help them. In the richest religions... They offer their prayers! :?

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:24 am

Beth,

Its' all about advertising and self promotion. Let me repost the quote by Father Juan (Johann) Nentvig SJ in "Rudo Ensayo":
"Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius."
Boil all that down, and you get that in the 1600s, there was an argument going on inside the Church either for or against Religious Opulence. The FOR side appears to have won. The Catholic Church as a whole agrees with Saint Loyola that people are more inclined to worship in a Church that is awe inspiring over one that is plain and unadorned.

Best-Mike

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