The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

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Rex Western
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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Rex Western » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:45 pm

This was one of my questions many years ago, since Father Polzer stated that the heart symbol was of Northern European decent around the early 1800's. That was one of but many of his reason that the Stone Maps were fakes.

I have found in many Jesuit books, woodcut art showing the sacred heart, in the same format as on the Stone Maps in books written as early as 1699 A.D.

One such book "Meditationes Secrae" Written by Johann Gerhard Dated 1699
another being, L'Excellence de la Devotion au coeur de Jesus-Christ
Written by A Nancy, Chez la veuve Baltasard. 1745 A.D.

Both books have several depictions of the heart in the format carved on the stones.

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:49 pm

Javaone, Rex,

As I stated previously, the Jesuit Order began using the Sacred Heart very early in its' existence. Here is the title page of The Ratio Studiorum (1598, yes one thousand five hundred and ninety-eight).

Image

Just another little example of how the eminent Father Polzer SJ was mistaken (whether intentionally or unintentionally I can't say) about several aspects of Jesuit History.

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:09 pm

..............almost forgot,

I do know where Father Polzer got the idea about that though. While the Jesuits were suppressed, Pope Pius VI pushed many of the former Jesuits to unite with another group, at which time they formed "The Fathers of the Sacred Heart." This happened in 1794-1796. Until the restoration of the Jesuit Order in 1814, the only Jesuits outside of Russia were known as Fathers of the Sacred Heart.

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:14 pm

Good to see you Rex,

Work must be taking up all your time, haven't seen much of you at all lately. I hear that mountain calling your name every day, and sometimes late at night. Can't you hear it from there? :D

Jim

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by Rex Western » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:09 am

Jim,

I do, it keeps me awake at night. Check your email.

Rex

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by oroblanco » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:41 pm

Gollum wrote
Until the restoration of the Jesuit Order in 1814, the only Jesuits outside of Russia were known as Fathers of the Sacred Heart.
I presume you are not referring to the Jesuits who remained in the United States, where they founded Georgetown U. during the period of their suppression, or to the Jesuits who took refuge in Prussia right? Pretty strange places for Jesuits to find 'refuge' if you think about it, Protestant USA and Prussia, and Eastern Orthodox Russia - not exactly strongholds of the Catholic faith. ;)
Roy

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:45 am

oroblanco wrote:Gollum wrote
Until the restoration of the Jesuit Order in 1814, the only Jesuits outside of Russia were known as Fathers of the Sacred Heart.
I presume you are not referring to the Jesuits who remained in the United States, where they founded Georgetown U. during the period of their suppression, or to the Jesuits who took refuge in Prussia right? Pretty strange places for Jesuits to find 'refuge' if you think about it, Protestant USA and Prussia, and Eastern Orthodox Russia - not exactly strongholds of the Catholic faith. ;)
Roy
Roy,

The Jesuits were not officially suppressed worldwide until 21 July 1773 by Pope Clement IV under "Dominus ac Redemptor".

It is not surprising at all that the Jesuits found refuge in Russia, Prussia, or Maryland. With their vast wealth, the Jesuits could only have bought their refuge from Sovereigns that weren't subject to the Catholic Church (Russia and Prussia), Spain, Portugal, France, or England. As far as Maryland, it was originally a settlement founded BY THE JESUITS in 1634! Georgetown University wasn't founded as a Jesuit University. It was originally founded as a Catholic University. Even that was insane, because the United States had laws against Church Schooling. You can trust me on this, as one of the Jesuits I correspond with, who is a great source of information is a renowned Professor of History at Georgetown University.

After their suppression, all the Jesuits didn't go to Russia and Prussia. A great many of them stayed working for the Church (just not as Jesuits) in Rome. Again, Pope Pius VI told those Former Jesuits to join with others and form the Fathers of the Sacred Heart in about 1794. That is who they were until their restoration in 1814 (1805 in Maryland).

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:26 pm

When I asked my friend at Georgetown about the Sacred Heart, he replied:
Certainly, the great turning point in Jesuit use of Sacred Heart symbolism was after the Society
recognized the apparitions of the "Sacred Heart" to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque (d.1690). She had a Jesuit confessor, Claude de la Colombiere....but it took the church and the Jesuits a while to accept them. However, there were earlier precedents....look at the article on McBrien's Encyclopedia of Catholicsm. Jesuit in the early 17th century, before Margaret Mary, where using the symbol in their "emblem books," =
high class meditation books with illustrations. The Society appropriated it in full force, however, only in the 19th century.
I then asked him this:
So, while it wasn't official until the late 18th Century, it seems that the Heart was an important symbol to the Jesuit Order in even its' earliest years. In your opinion, would I be more or less correct
in making that statement?
his reply:
I think you could safely say that the SH (Sacred Heart) was a symbol the Jesuits used in certain contexts beginning in the seventeenth century....I'd leave out the adjective "important" .....not sure it quite hits the nail on the head
This is also the man that doesn't have an issue with Jesuit Coadjutors owning and operating mines. Seems to me that Father Polzer SJ was working with a bit of an agenda. My source has also been a Jesuit Priest for about 40 years.

Best-Mike

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by javaone » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:37 pm

Thanks Mike! Great info!!

BOY! did I open a can of woyms… -- :o

Just so you know, I do believe the Peralta Maps are genuine - in my opinion < for you Jim.

This does leave a little opening for my second question: Would it be possible to link a particular Priest or Jesuit Coadjutor to “starting” to commonly use this symbol in the 1700s – 1850s possibly residing in northern Mexico?

My thought is….. if this person(s), if a link is found, could have had some involvement leading to the Peralta Maps. This may help to determine if the symbol was more “visual” or just symbolic. Generally speaking, people tend to start using things that are close to their “Heart”.

Jerry

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Re: The FACTS Behind Jesuit Rules, Mines, and Treasures

Post by gollum » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:56 pm

The short answer to your question is YES. It is possible. I will include two of the largest sources of period documents online:

1. DRSW (Desert Relations of the SouthWest) by U of Az:

http://www.statemuseum.arizona.edu/oer/drswtool.shtml


2. the National Park Service (NPS) Mission 2000 Mission Records System:

http://home.nps.gov/applications/tuma/search.cfm

You should already have a list of the names of the Priests you suspect. Search for documents written by those priests. See if you can find any hearts in their rubrics. If you can't find anything in those places, there are others you can look.

Best-Mike

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