Who altered the Stone maps?

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by gollum » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:31 pm

Jim Hatt wrote:Thanks for the input Mike & Alan,

re: Santa FE

As far as I can remember. Nobody like Richard Robinson or Chuck Kenworthy, who both spent many hours studding the stones, ever mentioned the SANTA FE on he edge of the H/P stone. (I could be wrong. I can't remember everything, and of late it seems that I have forgotten far more than I remember). :?

If anyone runs across any place where those letters are mentioned in some of the older books/manuscripts, please let the rest of us know where you found it.

Best,

Jim
Hey Jim,

Kenworthy absolutely saw the Santa Fe first in 1981. In fact it was one of the big "clues" which helped him come to his conclusions as to the meaning of the Ruth/Peralta Map.

Here is a scan from page# 10 of Kenworthy's Book "Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman" :

Image

I am still looking for any older mentionings.

Best-Mike

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by gollum » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:28 pm

Dang. I cropped the part that actually mentions "SANTA FE". Here ya go:

Image

Image

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:50 pm

Hey Thanks Mike!

That takes it back a long ways, but still leaves the period when Mitchell/Moel owned them wide open. I believe Louie at the Bluebird told me he took photos of them when they were on display there in the 60's.

I'll check with him and see if he photographed the edges or not.

Best,

Jim

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by alan m » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:46 pm

Hello Jim
It has been a while since I last posted, do not want anyone thinking that I had found the LDM and ran off to Tahiti.
In previous post offerd by Mike as to the six zeros on the back of the tablet having been carved by Tumlinson, Mike and I have exchanged our opposing opinions and Mike has offered a very good explaination to support his opinion in that the heart tablet became broken while Travis was carving the six zeros.
I conceeded to the possibility untill closly examining the photo from Glovers book of the tablets on the bumper of the 1939 Olds, the cracks in the heart tablet can easily be seen.
This implies that the cracks in the heart tablet were there when Travis found the tablets.
Now if this is true then the odds are that the six zeros on the back of the heart tablet are original because I am sure that any attempt to carve the would have resulted in the cracks becomming freashly separated, meaning that whatever glue was used to hold them together would have failed. This is significant because the glue that now holds the stone together would be of contemparary origin.
I read the Peck letters and to me thay seem desperate as if Peck was looking for some evidence to use against Mitchell in hopes of manipulating him perhaps?
Best Regards Alan

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by AshtonPage » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:27 pm

Gentlemen,

I noticed on the heart stone, it appears that someone chiseled off whatever was once on the bottom corner. What is interesting is that there’s an arrow (or pointer) pointing at the chiseled off area. :shock:

Are there any old photos where this area is not chiseled off?

It seems to me that when a treasure map depicts an arrow pointing at (whatever), that ‘whatever’ is a crucial piece of the puzzle. Yes, no, maybe?

Any idea what was on the stone before it was chiseled off or who might have done this? I think the ‘why’ is obvious. The photo should be self explanatory.

Thanks,
Ashton

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by somehiker » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:27 am

Ashton:
There are a number of chipped areas around the edge of the heart,so it's hard to sat whether or not any are significant.I believe the Heart Stone currently displayed at the museum is the original,and the only change that I have noted,from the oldest clear photo to the most recent,is some material missing from the upper end of the glued crack.The marking you have pointed out looks to me to have originally been a small X
with the dot now mostly obscuring it..........could be wrong,however.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by somehiker » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:20 pm

There is additional information,regarding Travis Tumlinson having altered the primary Heart Stone.
This claim was made on Mar.16,1965 by Bob Bair,during a meeting with Mel Brower.

During a meeting with Bert Love on Apr. 10,1965,Bob Shultz,a sometimes partner of Travis on arrowhead hunts (who had been shown all four Stone Map carvings by his friend),stated that the back side of the Heart Stone had,when he saw it...."seven ciphers"....
Now,to my way of thinking,it would be highly unlikely that someone seeing six zeros would interpret them as being "ciphers".It makes perfect sense to me however, that seven letters or symbols,consisting of vertical (straight) and horizontal (some curved and some straight) elements,could be easily altered to six somewhat imperfect zeros.

Regards:Wayne (somehiker)

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by babymick1 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:20 pm

somehiker wrote:There is additional information,regarding Travis Tumlinson having altered the primary Heart Stone.
This claim was made on Mar.16,1965 by Bob Bair,during a meeting with Mel Brower.

During a meeting with Bert Love on Apr. 10,1965,Bob Shultz,a sometimes partner of Travis on arrowhead hunts (who had been shown all four Stone Map carvings by his friend),stated that the back side of the Heart Stone had,when he saw it...."seven ciphers"....
Now,to my way of thinking,it would be highly unlikely that someone seeing six zeros would interpret them as being "ciphers".It makes perfect sense to me however, that seven letters or symbols,consisting of vertical (straight) and horizontal (some curved and some straight) elements,could be easily altered to six somewhat imperfect zeros.

Regards:Wayne (somehiker)

Wayne, Back in those days numbers where refered to as ciphers, my father never called them numbers, always ciphers. Dad did his schooling in the 20's & 30's. I'm thinking he said seven ciphers because the heart stone was in the trail map with the one on the map being counted.

Babymick1

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by somehiker » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:18 am

Mick:
While you make a valid observation,Bob's use of the term in this case seems to imply a series of different symbols.He used the word numerals later in the conversation,and was familiar with spanish treasure symbols as well,having used them in his interpretation of the maps.Seems to me,that if what Bob saw on the Heart was indeed six zeros,he would have used the word "zero",rather than "cipher",which could have been mad up of a combination of any of the prime numbers.

Regards:Somehiker

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Re: Who altered the Stone maps?

Post by babymick1 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:44 pm

Well Somehiker

Symbols or zero,s I,m going with my first thought of what they are
a LADDER

Babymick1

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