THE "GERMAN" CLUES

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djui5
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Re: THE BARK NOTES on - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by djui5 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:27 pm

roward,
If you want a great list of clues that came directly from Walt's mouth read Helen Corbin's book "The Bible on Jacob Waltz and the Lost Dutchman Mine".

Jim Hatt

THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:41 am

For those who do not know what clues djui is talking about. He appears to be referring to the "German Clues". As to whether or not they came "directly from Waltz's mouth" is highly debatable. It is more in the realm of Helen said... The Holmes Camp said... Herman said... Julia said... Waltz said, which is a long, long ways from "directly from Waltz's mouth", but it is the only "List of clues" that comes to mind from that particular book.

As I keep repeating in these forums. Only someone who spoke directly to Waltz could say that "He said". Anything else falls under... According to "So and So" Waltz said.

Jacob Waltz is the "Primary Source" for anything concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch are "Secondary Sources".
Bark and Ely would be "Third Hand Sources". Anyone quoting Bark or Ely would be "Fourth Hand Sources"... etc. Every step away from Waltz presents the possibility of the information being misquoted, misunderstood or intentionally altered, by the time it gets to us.

The German Clues first appeared to the public on pages 184-187 in Helen Corbin's book The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz Published in June 2002.

According to the information provided to Helen along with them. Sometime around the turn of the century Herman Petrasch, approached members of the Holmes Camp, and presented them with this list of clues.

That in itself, should be enough to make anyone immediately suspicious about the source of the clues. If that is not enough… Then you have to wonder why neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely ever heard of these clues, and why none of them match up with anything Julia Thomas, or the Petrasch’s told Ely or Bark?

Here are the clues as presented in Helen Corbin's book identified above:

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Am I the only one that finds it hard to believe that Herman Petrasch was the source for these clues, and that he went out of his way to hand them over to the Holmes camp?



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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by djui5 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:41 pm

Thanks Jim ;)

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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by djui5 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:43 pm

djui5 wrote:Thanks Jim ;)
Forgot to add great post. It sure gives someone something to think about. BTW, just so everyone knows, Jim took my post from another thread and started this one. I did NOT ask Jim to do this NOR did I ask him to post the excerpts from Helen's book. Just don't want someone thinking I was up to something here as I have no reason to continue the Holmes/Julia camp feuds.

Jim Hatt

Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

I had to move it djui,

I had to start a new topic to put your post in, or delete it, because it did not fit where it was.

You brought up the German Clues in the topic for the Bark Notes, and then you left a lot of people hanging... Wondering what clues you were referring to? I knew, so I set out to explain before my email box filled up with questions.

You are never going to be able to discuss the LDM without getting all tangled up in the Thomas/Petrasch vs Holmes/Roberts feud. It is as old as the legend itself. You stumble over it, around it, and right into the middle of it, every time you quote a statement, refer to a clue, or open a new book.

It doesn't mean you have to choose sides, but it will serve you well to keep the clues separated by which camp they come from. Helen's book suggests that the German Clues come from the Petrasch camp. But, anyone who has been involved in researching the LDM and the clues, can see right away, that they are not consistent with the recorded history of that camp. If they were, some of them would have appeared in some of the interviews, done with primary members of that camp.

The door is wide open for anyone to come right in, and challenge my opinion on this, but I am not expecting to see a lot of opposition voiced.

Jim

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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by Roger » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:42 am

JIm,

The first six of the "German Clues" match exactly the path that Waltz took when Dick Holmes trailed him out of Phoenix according to the Holmes Manuscript (1944) which gave the trail as follows from Phoenix:

1. 1st Night - Waltz camped on the Verde River about two miles north of the Granite Reef diversion which would be south of Fort McDowell which was on the Verde and north of the Verde.
2. 2nd Night - Waltz camped at Agua Escondido (hidden water) in Cottonwood Wash which is still on the north side of the Salt River.
3. 3rd Night - Waltz camped at Tortilla Spring on the south side of the Salt River very near to today's Tortilla Flat.

The other 19 clues have elements that tie in with several well known LDM clues - spires/felsenspitze, two Mexican holes, a cave, etc. My inclination is to think that these clues are valid - the question is: did the writer give them just as they received them, were they altered over time to remove critical location information, etc. Using these clues, Herman ended up on Tortilla Mtn, Bark/Ely on Bluff Spring Mtn, Wm. Edwards on Peters Mesa, etc. Looks like one could select a whole lot of places in the Superstitions with their interpretation of the German Clues.

Roger

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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by Roger » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:56 am

Made an error in the first night stop of Waltz's path as followed by Holmes. Corrected version is:

1. 1st Night - Waltz camped on the Verde River about two miles north of the Granite Reef diversion which would be south of Fort McDowell which was on the Verde and north of the Salt River.

Sorry about that.

Roger

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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by i-tsarl-tsu- i » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:39 pm

Roger,

Hope all is well, and we are looking forward to seeing you at the Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous.

Like Jim, I have my doubts about the legitimacy of the "German Clues". Because they follow the Holmes story so closely, at least in the beginning, it might hint at the original source of the "clues". Since everything from Waltz, basically, came through Julia and Rhiney, one would expect to find these clues in the Bark Notes or Ely's book. I can also see why those clues might have been withheld from public view.

Jim has been around a long time, and I wonder when he first heard the local whisper's about these "clues". Better yet, maybe he knows when Clay Worst became aware of them. That's about as far back as it goes these days.

There has been some wonderful research done on the history that surrounds the LDM. Dr. Thomas Glover, Tom Kollenborn and Bob and Helen Corbin are a few of the names that come immediately to mind, but I find any "clues" that are not in Bark's notes, less than compelling.

I believe there will be some people at this years Rendezvous who may have been very close to to the "German Clues", early on......Pre-publication.

That's all personal opinion, so that and five bucks will get me an average cup of coffee.

Take care,

Joe

Jim Hatt

Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:31 pm

Joe,

I believe Clay and I both heard about the "German Clues" for the first time, in his living room, about two years (Maybe more) before Helen's book "The Bible" came out. We were told at the time that the clues would be coming out in a book that was being written by a woman, that was not identified at the time. We were also told that the list of clues came from a letter that Waltz had written to his sister, or some other relative, when they were shown to us.

The list was modified and grew considerably by the time it came out in print, and the source was changed from a letter, to Herman Petrasch.

Strange how those things happen...

I believe Clay will "Reluctantly" agree to all the above.

Jim

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Re: THE "GERMAN" CLUES

Post by djui5 » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:35 am

Jim Hatt wrote:
The list was modified and grew considerably by the time it came out in print, and the source was changed from a letter, to Herman Petrasch.

Jim

Jim,
Any chance you could share what the "original" clues were? Why would Waltz write clues to a mine in a letter to his sister? That doesn't really make sense.

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